Brown back in pack but future clouded

[Burgs]

I have only seen Houston MkII in the last two matches, but on the back of that I would have to use the in term of the week, "Epic Fail!"
He has no mobility and has mistaken fat for muscle, he looks like a tall Prop.
Used to be an imposing specimen, now he should be used for holding up one end of the bar at

[Jehna]

If he was staying, he'd have signed on the dotted line. If you want it, you jump at it and you don't dribble disingenuous discourse like "I haven't made my mind up". Does anybody remember Giteau saying the same thing whilst he was trying to weasel out of his contract?

You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time

Firstly, I don't believe Giteau was trying to weasel out of anything given that his contract was expiring. Likewise, Brownie and Drew and all the other Force players who are off contract have every right to consider their decision to leave without intrusion from the media speculating on everything. You whinge when they take to long to decide because you claim it cause disunity as everybody is uncertain, and they must therefore lack commitment. However, you also whinge when when they make the decision early in the season because then they can't possibly be dedicated and mature players who will play their heart out for the remainder of their contract, and of course the rest of the team will be upset because they're playing with someone they now know doesn't want to be there. In your eyes it seems to be a lose lose situation for all players up for resigning unless they come out immediately and say "i love the force, i can't imagine playing anywhere but the force, sign me up for life". Whilst that would be lovely to hear, it is unrealistic to expect, and unfair to punish if that is not their response.

Burgs is absolutely right when he says that whilst it is a tough decision to make, it doesn't need to be lengthy. But we're assuming that length is determined by when the media make it an issue. For all we know, the contracts on the table for Brown and Drew and even probably O'Connor and Valentine aren't anywhere near finalised for the players to make a decision. But the media demand one via their speculation and constant pestering. So what else can the player do except say "I haven't made a decision". It's not necessarily their fault that the process is drawn out.

[Burgs]

In an ideal world we would probably hear players say, "I will make my announcement on XXXX, I have no further comment untill that date."
Preferably "XXXX" would be the day after the final match of the year.

[JediKnight]

In an ideal world we would probably hear players say, "I will make my announcement on XXXX, I have no further comment untill that date."
Preferably "XXXX" would be the day after the final match of the year.

That would be a whole lot easier if there was a transfer window that started the day after the Final.

[Rex Messup]

Firstly, I don't believe Giteau was trying to weasel out of anything given that his contract was expiring.

His contract expired after the 2009 super 14 season finished. Why was he trying to link with a club in France after the wallaby tour to Europe in the European autumn of 2008?

I think your emotional attachment for the player clouds your judgement and influences your opinion through blind faith.

You whinge when they take to long to decide because you claim it cause disunity as everybody is uncertain, and they must therefore lack commitment.

Pretending you haven't signed with another franchise lowers your self worth in the eyes of your colleagues. It creates tension, mistrust and often dislike. This is not beneficial to harmonious team effort and performance.

However, you also whinge when when they make the decision early in the season because then they can't possibly be dedicated and mature players who will play their heart out for the remainder of their contract

If you sign for another club, you have moved on spiritually and emotionally. The mental aspect of professional sport cannot be underestimated. You might be happy to believe such balderdash as "I will put my heart and sould into the rest of the season" but human nature is not worthy of such esteem.

and of course the rest of the team will be upset because they're playing with someone they now know doesn't want to be there.

If the momentum goes against the team, yes this happens whether you care to believe it or not. We could all stick our heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't I suppose.

You know in your heart where you want to be. Anybody who says otherwise is a liar. Money sometimes lures you into a wrong decision. I am not a fan of ducks and drakes. If the Force management had any leadership qualities, they would have put deadlines on a decision for all off contract players at the start of the season to prevent this team destroying process. You have X $$$ + a bonus if you decide by Feb 1. You have X $$$ - 10% and no bonus if you decide by Feb 10. If you haven't decided by Feb 10, our contract will be withdrawn and you will be a free agent. We will replace you. It's not actually hard to make up your mind at all. All this crap that it takes 12 months to plan what rugby team you will play for next season is absolute bullsh1t The Force management are lightweights. They have no leadership qualities at all. They would rather drag this process the length of the season and compromise the team performance. The leadership group should be sacked immediately and replaced with management that knows how to manage.

[pieter blackie]

His contract expired after the 2009 super 14 season finished. Why was he trying to link with a club in France after the wallaby tour to Europe in the European autumn of 2008?

I think your emotional attachment for the player clouds your judgement and influences your opinion through blind faith.



Pretending you haven't signed with another franchise lowers your self worth in the eyes of your colleagues. It creates tension, mistrust and often dislike. This is not beneficial to harmonious team effort and performance.



If you sign for another club, you have moved on spiritually and emotionally. The mental aspect of professional sport cannot be underestimated. You might be happy to believe such balderdash as "I will put my heart and sould into the rest of the season" but human nature is not worthy of such esteem.



If the momentum goes against the team, yes this happens whether you care to believe it or not. We could all stick our heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't I suppose.

You know in your heart where you want to be. Anybody who says otherwise is a liar. Money sometimes lures you into a wrong decision. I am not a fan of ducks and drakes. If the Force management had any leadership qualities, they would have put deadlines on a decision for all off contract players at the start of the season to prevent this team destroying process. You have X $$$ + a bonus if you decide by Feb 1. You have X $$$ - 10% and no bonus if you decide by Feb 10. If you haven't decided by Feb 10, our contract will be withdrawn and you will be a free agent. We will replace you. It's not actually hard to make up your mind at all. All this crap that it takes 12 months to plan what rugby team you will play for next season is absolute bullsh1t The Force management are lightweights. They have no leadership qualities at all. They would rather drag this process the length of the season and compromise the team performance. The leadership group should be sacked immediately and replaced with management that knows how to manage.

well said

[tic]

I have only seen Houston MkII in the last two matches, but on the back of that I would have to use the in term of the week, "Epic Fail!"
He has no mobility and has mistaken fat for muscle, he looks like a tall Prop.
Used to be an imposing specimen, now he should be used for holding up one end of the bar at

Agreed Burgs - Houston (and theReds) hve been diabolical these past two weeks - but Houston had been playing well before this.

Frankly I just don't know what has happened these past two weeks - everything - and I mean everything - has imploded at the Reds.

Mooney and Horwill have a lot of work to do to get them back on track.

[pieter blackie]

Frankly I just don't know what has happened these past two weeks - everything - and I mean everything - has imploded at the Reds.

Blame the Force

[Rex Messup]

The win over the Sharks was due to energy, low body height, devastating ruthlessness and selflessness at the breakdown. Last night there was no contest at the breakdown. QLD didn't want to get bruised. Their scrum was raped. They believe in "spin it wide" but don't earn the right. They have read too many Courier Mail headlines praising their 7's style and now try and throw the miracle pass on every occasion instead of building pressure and retaining the ball and choosing the moment to run it at the defence. They also reject opportunities to counter attack when they are actually on which is contradictory to their self hailed "skill" at the running game

[laura]

Despite the fact that ARU would not release him, the fact still remains Giteau did not go looking for the offer it was made to him.

Putting their heart and soul into their current team after signing for another is not a cop out. If they play like crap just because they were moving on a) they would ruin any prospects at a Wallabies call up and b) it would make for a rough start at the new club who would not be willing to play someone who couldn't be bothered finishing off their season.

You know in your heart where you want to be. Anybody who says otherwise is a liar. Money sometimes lures you into a wrong decision. I am not a fan of ducks and drakes. If the Force management had any leadership qualities, they would have put deadlines on a decision for all off contract players at the start of the season to prevent this team destroying process. You have X $$$ + a bonus if you decide by Feb 1. You have X $$$ - 10% and no bonus if you decide by Feb 10. If you haven't decided by Feb 10, our contract will be withdrawn and you will be a free agent. We will replace you. It's not actually hard to make up your mind at all. All this crap that it takes 12 months to plan what rugby team you will play for next season is absolute bullsh1t The Force management are lightweights. They have no leadership qualities at all. They would rather drag this process the length of the season and compromise the team performance. The leadership group should be sacked immediately and replaced with management that knows how to manage.

A player might know in their heart where they want to be, but whether that translates to the offer that has been made is a different matter. Its all good and well to say 'yep I want to play for the Reds next season because that's where my home is' but if the Reds make an offer that is less than desirable a player needs to weigh up whether they are willing to make financial sacrifices to move home or emotional sacrifices to make money and when considering how much some of their contracts are worth, I sure as hell wouldn't be making the decision lightly.

To be honest, I think your suggestion of a contracting system is not ideal. You can't penalise/punish a player for not having their contract sorted out before the start of the season. What if no one makes them an offer, you kick them out anyway because they couldn't sort something out? It's not that cut and dry to suggest that they have a deadline and their bonus depends on when they get their stuff sorted.

It should not be down to the Western Force and RugbyWA to implement a player contracting system that does not interfere withe the season. It should be down to the ARU. Its not the fault of RugbyWA that the recruiting system is crap, it was like that before the Force was initiated into the Super14 and its stretching it to say that the Force are to blame and therefore need to fix it. If RugbyWA makes rules for player contracting then all 3 other teams need to be doing the same thing otherwise it won't work.
I was reading the regulations for recruitment of players between South African teams and while they don't have a distinct period to negotiate ie. June-July, they do state that there is a 120 window (prior to the end of a contract) that they can negotiate, with all contracts for 12 months maximum.

3.2 A contract between a Club and a Player shall be subject to the following conditions:

3.2.1 it shall be for a fixed term ;

3.2.2 not be longer than 12 (twelve) months at a time; and

3.2.3 shall not terminate later than 31 December of any given year, irrespective of the term in 3.2.2 above;
.......
4.2 Subject to 4.3, an intended Transferee who wishes to negotiate the terms and conditions of the movement of a Player contracted with an intended Transferor or before the Player’s contract has expired, shall in writing request permission from the intended Transferor to enter into negotiations with the Player concerned or his Agent. No negotiations, directly or indirectly, are permissible prior to obtaining the said permission. This sub-regulation is not applicable to a player contracted with a Club, but not contracted with his Province.

4.3 Notwithstanding 4.2, an intended Transferee may negotiate the transfer of a Contract Player from an intended Transferor to an intended Transferee and may enter into negotiations with the Player concerned within a period of 120 days prior to the expiry date of a Player’s contract, without seeking any permission as set out above. This sub-regulation is not applicable to a player contracted with a Club, but not contracted with his Province.

Force management may well be leightweights and have no leadership qualities but John Mitchell demonstrated his qualities as a leader and got a kick up the backside off to the corner for that. Who is to say that they want the process dragged out, I'm sure that they, like everyone else, want whats best for the players and having contracts sorted and focus on games is inevitably a priority for any rugby club, not just the Force.

[Rex Messup]

Despite the fact that ARU would not release him, the fact still remains Giteau did not go looking for the offer it was made to him.

The naivety of youth. Nothing more, nothing less. You want to believe it

Putting their heart and soul into their current team after signing for another is not a cop out.

It's the one percenters
The extra effort at training. That extra effort on the last 400m sprint for example
The effort to make a covering tackle. Putting your body on the line in contact in the last game when you are going to another club next year........and 100 other scenarios in a game when the opportunity to go missing presents itself. It isn't always evident on a television set. The stats may suggest you had a fair game. It is intangible and only the player themselves knows the truth.

A player might know in their heart where they want to be, but whether that translates to the offer that has been made is a different matter.

Absolutely correct. It makes the decision process easier though. If the offer is short of the mark to the point where it isn't acceptable, you don't take it. You have a period of time to negotiate that expires on Feb 10. They know it. If the offer isn't acceptable, you don't take it. Negotiation 101. There are a few variables in ther equation but the decision process can be streamlined. You can't always get what you want but that doesn't mean you should have an entire season to make up your mind.

To be honest, I think your suggestion of a contracting system is not ideal.

Based on your opinion. Unfortunately you are wrong. What is not ideal is to have half your playing roster unsure of who and who isn't staying at the club and everybody playing secret squirrel behind each others backs. What is ideal is to have it sorted before a ball is kicked in the season.

You can't penalise/punish a player for not having their contract sorted out before the start of the season. What if no one makes them an offer

You can. Employers have every right to know who is staying and who is leaving. It isn't just players that have to make decisions for the future. The Franchise has to field a team and want to make plans too.
If nobody else has made them an offer, they'd be stupid to knock back an offer from you wouldn't they? If they choose not to take your offer, that's the risk they take. The decision is actually quite simple. Procrastination is for the weak and confused. This is the playing field of underachievers. Winners make decisions and back themselves.

It should not be down to the Western Force and RugbyWA to implement a player contracting system that does not interfere withe the season. It should be down to the ARU.

Only The Western Force will look after its own interests. It is their sole responsibility to sort out their playing roster. They are very bad at it.


The treatment of John Mitchell and the ridiculous situation that arose where the players were asked to comment on his performance was a disgrace. It should never have happened. Player power has gone too far in this country. They were hired to play, not tell the coach what to do. If they don't like it, they leave. Pretty simple. This circus was another outrageous example of very weak management at the FARCE

[laura]

Agree to disagree.

Based on your opinion. Unfortunately you are wrong.

Differing opinion doesn't make me wrong. I agree we need a distinct period for contract negotiations but I don't agree with the method you're suggesting and I don't agree that RugbyWA need to be the ones to construct a sytstem.
South Afrcian lead a good example in that the Nation's Rugby Union board make the regulations and the provincial teams stick to it. The ARU needs to step up and take control of this situation. Its not just affecting the Super14 season because if players aren't performing then, they aren't going to be selected for Wallabies and we may well have a team of average players instead of outstanding players.

[Rex Messup]

If you had a deadline to make a decision, you'd make it. It is that simple. The current situation is a malignant cancer which has spread its roots into every level of the franchise. Successful companies do not operate like this

[tic]

The win over the Sharks was due to energy, low body height, devastating ruthlessness and selflessness at the breakdown. Last night there was no contest at the breakdown. QLD didn't want to get bruised. Their scrum was raped. They believe in "spin it wide" but don't earn the right. They have read too many Courier Mail headlines praising their 7's style and now try and throw the miracle pass on every occasion instead of building pressure and retaining the ball and choosing the moment to run it at the defence. They also reject opportunities to counter attack when they are actually on which is contradictory to their self hailed "skill" at the running game

Pretty fair analysis I think. Up until two weeks ago the forwards did lay the platform and the backs had the luxury to indulge the fancy game. Last night they were playing park touch football from their own end of the field rather than playing a measured kicking game and, as you say, building the pressure through the forwards (who are actually very good, and can build pressure).

[Jehna]

His contract expired after the 2009 super 14 season finished. Why was he trying to link with a club in France after the wallaby tour to Europe in the European autumn of 2008?

The naivety of youth. Nothing more, nothing less. You want to believe it

Oh now this just shits me to tears. The naivety of youth. Young does not equate to ignorance. Young does not make us naive. I am just as well informed (as i'm sure is laura), if not more so than you, about the reality of business, negotiations, backstabbing, manipulation, and Giteau's management. I may only be 22yrs old but i have experienced a great deal in that time and for everything I haven't, I take the opportunity to learn from people who can make a more coherent and persuasive argument than "the naivety of youth". There is absolutely nothing more naive than claiming that your age makes you in anyway more knowledgeable and superior than others. Get serious. If you want to make such bold claims show the evidence, or bestow upon me the insightful knowledge you implicitly claim to have, that suggests Giteau sought a contract with a club in France which he subsequently turned down.

I think your emotional attachment for the player clouds your judgement and influences your opinion through blind faith.

Again, if one more person tells me that i'm am blinded by emotional attachment I will scream. Give me some credit. My argument stands for every single player up for contract renewal whether they be a Force player or any other. The reason I directed it to Giteau was because you brought him up. Your constant belittling suggests to me nothing more than the fact that your blind hatred of Giteau is clouding your judgement and preventing you from making an objective analysis. If anything, my emotional attachment to Giteau should make me angry and upset that he is leaving but I am not so petty. I can recognise that Giteau, like every player, has the right to make the best decision for their future and that no one, particularly the media, should be able to dictate the appropriate time for it to be made, especially when they are in no position to know if it is even possible for the player to make it.

Pretending you haven't signed with another franchise lowers your self worth in the eyes of your colleagues. It creates tension, mistrust and often dislike. This is not beneficial to harmonious team effort and performance.

Who is pretending? What evidence do you have that any of the players keeping quiet have signed with another club?

If you sign for another club, you have moved on spiritually and emotionally. The mental aspect of professional sport cannot be underestimated. You might be happy to believe such balderdash as "I will put my heart and sould into the rest of the season" but human nature is not worthy of such esteem.

How do you live in the real world Rex? You must have serious issues with anyone who is on a temp contract, or a contract with any sort of expiry period...and not just in sport but in everyday society. Hell, perhaps we should just never hire anyone to do anything unless they sell their soul to the job at hand, because by god, we can't expect hem to have any dedication to the task at hand if they have plans for the future which don't include the current job. Fire all the tradies because guess what, I guarantee you they have a job lined up after the current one their completing and that must mean they won't build that wall, or connect the electricity to the best of their ability in your house. Of course, they're already thinking about the next job..

Have you ever considered, that perhaps there is more to life than that? Players have reputations to consider, future careers to consider, national selection opportunities they want to gain, their own personal development which requires them to take every opportunity to play rugby (even if it is with a club they don't like) and shock horror, perhaps they have a conscience? Friendship, self respect, respect for others.....these are all factors which affect a players' game and form the basis of why he chooses to play the way he does. Just because a player has signed to another club, does not mean they won't put their heart and soul into the rest of the season. There is still so much that motivates their performance that is not linked to the contract they have signed. Hence why, it is also a huge decision for players to move clubs and not one which you can give such a cut and dry expiration date to. Human nature is worthy of such esteem because we see it every god damn day. What motivates people? Selfishness is a large part of it for sure, but explain to me why fire fighters risk their lives to save others, why volunteers help millions of people around the world in poverty, why soldiers choose to sign up and fight other countries' wars. Humanity has some compassion, and some ability to reason so that their actions may just reflect a concept which seems to have escaped you - doing the right thing.

Based on your opinion. Unfortunately you are wrong.

"[E]ven if the world is in the right, it is always probable that the dissentients have something worth hearing to say for themselves, and that truth would lose something by their silence.”

John Stuart Mill rightfully argued that that no man has the right to silence the opinion of another because there is no way of knowing that if that person's opinion is in fact the truth, or contains a potion of the truth. Even if you don't believe that Laura is right, her opinion is not wrong, and as Mill argues, to deny this is to assume our own infallibility. So that's a bold claim you make Rex. Are you claiming to be perfect?