Taskforce Advised Rectangular Stadium Sustainable

[The EnForcer]

Thanks for your response Egan and I understand now that the statements you have made on any stadium outcomes are your opinion and do not have any official basis apart from what we know from published options.....please correct me if I’m wrong.

OK then, I still don't understand why the complete redevelopment of the MES site is so unlikely when the Town of Vincent (the local council and planning control entity) has presented such an option to the Task Force. Maybe I'm missing a fundamental piece of information here but I would have thought that if the council produces a plan for the redevelopment then that plan would be feasible! Maybe not, maybe we live in a world of make believe.

[AndyS]

Building up MES develops a stadium that can be upped in capacity into the future readily by just demolishing the Fred D Book Stand when funding becomes available.

I understand the pragmatic nature of the likely MES development but, given how difficult it is to even get a stadium on the agenda when there is a glaring need, I wouldn't be holding my breath for a future expansion (especially if it was also contingent on demolishing a listed stand). In the meantime, we'd have a stadium with a disproportionate amount of seating behind the dead ball line or facing into the sun. Maybe I'm just old and cynical, but experience tells me that you better be real happy with the "temporary" solution in this state because you'll probably be living with it for a long time. When we won this franchise, what was the timeframe given by our Government support for a dedicated stadium?

...
Burswood has the Graham Farmer Freeway and has similar good railway access as MES and Subiaco Oval have.

Burswood also has the ability to have a precinct entirely away from the setbacks that residential properties in Subiaco now have, and wish they didn't.

Burswood, Subi and MES may all have similar access, but I'd be curious to know how much of the crowd goes directly home after a game at Subi. A walk into Northbridge is onerous but possible following a game at MES, but there is essentially nothing at Burswood. I doubt a permanent entertainment precinct would be viable if it only catered for game days, and I'd have thought it was too far out of town to be viable stand-alone. So, while the freeway and rail is available, I wonder how well it would deal with 5,000 cars and 15,000+ train passengers descending simulataneously (how many train carriages, how many changes of lights?) Presumably then the Bundy bar is the model, with temporary bars, food and entertainment provided - be a nice little earner if organised by the Force, but maybe that is the pay-off the Burswood guys are expecting..?

[The EnForcer]

Well AndyS I hope you are wrong mate. I understand where you get your cynicism from but surely in this modern day and after $1M spent on the Task Force's efforts we are not going to revert to the old cheap and cheerful solution.

[Egan]

Thanks for your response Egan and I understand now that the statements 1.you have made on any stadium outcomes are your opinion and do not have any official basis apart from what we know from published options.....please correct me if I’m wrong.

OK then, I still don't understand why the complete redevelopment of the MES site is so unlikely when the Town of Vincent (the local council and planning control entity) has presented such an option to the Task Force. 2Maybe I'm missing a fundamental piece of information here but I would have thought that if the council produces a plan for the redevelopment then that plan would be feasible! Maybe not, maybe we live in a world of make believe.

1. The aspect is that my opinions are based with facts and the knowledge I have done into the redevelopment since the start, with conversations with Ross Alexander the Director General of Sports and Recreation, the CEO of Allia Holdings at the start and even Tom Baddeley the Media Officer of the Western Force. Thus it may be opinions and gut feelings, but the opinion I deliver is based on the wealth of knowledge I have on the issues and developments on this stadium.

2. They also presented the option of redeveloping from now, the last redevelopment was in 2003 and the sort of redevelopment from building up from the permanent lower tiers, makes me feel starting a fresh is a waste of money, especially when the state government is incredibly tight on any stadium infrastructure. Why would they spend 200 million from starting afresh, when they can spend 100 million to get the same capacity and same modern facility, and with quicker time due to less paper work.

Heading for Lunch now. Will answer any other questions when I get back

Cheers

Chris Egan
www.austadiums.com

[The EnForcer]

1. The aspect is that my opinions are based with facts and the knowledge I have done into the redevelopment since the start, with conversations with Ross Alexander the Director General of Sports and Recreation, the CEO of Allia Holdings at the start and even Tom Baddeley the Media Officer of the Western Force. Thus it may be opinions and gut feelings, but the opinion I deliver is based on the wealth of knowledge I have on the issues and developments on this stadium.

2. They also presented the option of redeveloping from now, the last redevelopment was in 2003 and the sort of redevelopment from building up from the permanent lower tiers, makes me feel starting a fresh is a waste of money, especially when the state government is incredibly tight on any stadium infrastructure. Why would they spend 200 million from starting afresh, when they can spend 100 million to get the same capacity and same modern facility, and with quicker time due to less paper work.

Rightyo....just wanted to clarify fact from fiction old boy.

So we do have a feasable plan from the Town of Vincent that allows for full redevelopment of the MES site with all the required corporate facilities we need, parking and 35k seats. Fact!

Some other facts you may like to read:

Current corporate seating at Subiaco just over 3300.

Current corporate seating at MES 465.

Planned corporate seating at MES after stage 4 i.e. full expansion. 1695

Planned MES total seating after stage 2 - 22,032

Planned MES total seating after stage 3 - 24,958

Planned MES total seating after full expansion - 31,609

Even after stage 3 we still have 2,700 people standing and how long will it be until they actually get to stage 4?

For a total expansion cost of approximately $180M (based on last years extremely optomistic figures spread over god knows how many years at a growth of heaps) we get an extra 13,453 seats and we don't meet our current needs.

Now you tell me from your wealth of knowledge Egan how you can say that the staged expansion is the better way to go?

[Egan]

Now you tell me from your wealth of knowledge Egan how you can say that the staged expansion is the better way to go?

It is what the Government will pay. People must realise the Major Stadia Taskforce is just a report, the government will look at the options and then decide what it will do.

With the Government's historical funding of stadiums.

The cheaper option will be the one that is done, in my view. But they may surprise me.

I do stand by that the redevelopment of the ground will create a modern stadium enjoyed by all, even if it is not started from scratch.

Remember Perth Glory fans like to stand, so complaining about standing for you guys, is something that Glory supporters enjoy. Thus may be a little appreciation of why the standing is kept until the very last moment - to keep the tenant that has played at the same ground since its inception in 1996 with some respect and the people who create a great atmosphere at that end of the ground - The Shed.

And the Enforcer, the project would go to stage 4 straight away, even if it is in staged projects. Providing the government wants to spend the money.

At one stage the government was saying it will in no way go straight to 35,000.

Thus why my scepticism of you guys looking at the expensive option as anything but false hopes.

[The EnForcer]

It is what the Government will pay. People must realise the Major Stadia Taskforce is just a report, the government will look at the options and then decide what it will do.

With the Government's historical funding of stadiums.

The cheaper option will be the one that is done, in my view. But they may surprise me.

I do stand by that the redevelopment of the ground will create a modern stadium enjoyed by all, even if it is not started from scratch.

Remember Perth Glory fans like to stand, so complaining about standing for you guys, is something that Glory supporters enjoy. Thus may be a little appreciation of why the standing is kept until the very last moment - to keep the tenant that has played at the same ground since its inception in 1996 with some respect and the people who create a great atmosphere at that end of the ground - The Shed.

So you expect us to show some respect to some soccer fans who like to stand while watching and end up with a stadium that can be enjoyed by all if they can get in and have facilities that do not meet our needs. Oh and by the way grounds that have terraces are generally viewed as old fashioned and unsafe.

Don't bother answering these questions but:

Where do your loyalties lie?
What is the real basis of your argument?
Are you going to spend your life believing we can't have change?
Are you not willing to fight for what is logical and what we need or are you just a puppet?

Maybe you just want to back what you think is the winning horse so then you will be able to say I told you so. Think about it.

[Egan]

Where do your loyalties lie?
What is the real basis of your argument?
Are you going to spend your life believing we can't have change?
Are you not willing to fight for what is logical and what we need or are you just a puppet?

Maybe you just want to back what you think is the winning horse so then you will be able to say I told you so. Think about it.

This is a report.

Who knows what the government will back, but my view is if they spend to get it to 30,000, they will back the cheapest option.

My loyalties - I am a sports fan and i want it redeveloped and EVERY sport and fan group need to compromise, from what the government will offer to the membership demand.

While also looking at historical issues to understand it.

If you go to MES you will realise that the standing room is not unsafe and David Smith can back me up on this, terracing adds to a stadium and the sort of chanting eminating from the facility that you lack at Force games.

Even the Victorian Government are considering spending money and adding 4000 standing room spots for their redevelopment

Are you going to spend your life believing we can't have change?
Are you not willing to fight for what is logical and what we need or are you just a puppet?

Not willing to fight? Mate I am a journalist, whose aspect is that it has to remain without bias and pressure from other sources and present the facts - which I have done.

What sort of journalist would I be, if I started writing articles saying that the Government is stupid, as a Force fan we need a 50,000 new stadium, otherwise we are not looking into the future.

All I am looking at realism, accepting your views, but at the end of the day this is a report and Stadia Taskforce Report.

The State Government has made it clear to the Town of Vincent that it didn't want a stadium larger then 25,000 six months ago.

So with that in mind, I am giving you the facts involved in why I think we won't get the facility that you are desiring.

It's not defeatist, or being a puppet (I have self editing and am free to go down any leads I like) but being a realist and trying to keep those with the power to look at doing something and not accepting nothing as I have done since 2004.

If you disagree with me - Great.

But it is quite ridiculous for the comment even if you didn't want me to reply that I shall go on a caimpaign because of the views of some on this forum...Which is why we have the crisis in the CCC.

I am a Force fan, a stadium lover - I want redevelopment.

Its been over a year late, so whether it is built on or start from scratch, I just want to see earth works!

[Happy]

I understand what you are bothing saying .. and on reflecting the attitudes of the government before the bid and after .. I think they were clearly expecting a membership of no more than 12,000 and we'd just slot into MES with some minor upgrades for corporate sponsorship.

It seems after the bid everyone, the government, myself and I think most people were really shocked and realised that Perth really didn't have a contingency for such an influx of rugby fans into the new franchise in the bid they put in. I'm sure if didn't enter anyones minds.

However - we do have the members, we do have the corporate sponsorship coming our of our proverbial and without a doubt, unless we have a ground to play at we will continue loosing the former two and before we know it, we will fit snuggly into MES (with some minor upgrades) and I think that will be really sad.

[The EnForcer]

Ah you're a reporter that is unbiased and only presents the facts. Ok I just thought you were somebody who makes assumptions based on speaking to people and reading reports and puts these things forward as an opinion. Sorry, got that completely wrong didn't I.

Oh and by the way, compromise is something I deal with all of the time but accepting the minimum is not something I do.

[Goldmember]

A 60,000 seat stadium is also too large for us and will result in a lack of atmosphere and, when beamed around the world, it will suggest a poor attendance

I guess we'll never get international games in Perth now because we need at least 50,000 seats for this. I'd rather have a larger stadium and get to watch test matches myself.

[The EnForcer]

I guess we'll never get international games in Perth now because we need at least 50,000 seats for this. I'd rather have a larger stadium and get to watch test matches myself.

We still get a 60,000 oval ground which will do us for internationals.

[Goldmember]

What about when the Force get their home Super 14 finals every year and our membership climbs to 50,000?

[AndyS]

What about when the Force get their home Super 14 finals every year and our membership climbs to 50,000?

From your keyboard to God's ears mate - then we'd have some lobbying power.

At one stage the government was saying it will in no way go straight to 35,000.

Thus why my scepticism of you guys looking at the expensive option as anything but false hopes.

I'm afraid I'd have to agree with Egan, mostly because the money will always out. To some extent though, that essentially implies that from a Rugby viewpoint the whole Taskforce review is nothing but a delaying tactic by the Government as the most likely outcomes are those that were on the table before the review started - stay at Subi, use another ground like the WACA or a development of MES focussed on adding seats wherever is easiest/cheapest rather than necessarily where is optimal.

[shasta]

What about when the Force get their home Super 14 finals every year and our membership climbs to 50,000?

Well I'd like to see that, but I don't know wether the pollies are likely to worry about what a "few thousand" rugby fans might think of them in the future. The shadow sports minister has already convinced himself that The Force's crowds will settle at 20-25000 in the long run. Don't know where he plucked that from but there you go.

The Dockers and Eagles had to grow their memberships before the government even looked into the possibility. The Govetrnment has refused to rule out the possibility that nothing may be done about a 60000+ seat stadium within a decade.

I think even rugbyWA initially underestimated the support for the game in WA and was happy with a comittment to develop MES to 25000.

The best way, as has been pointed out here, is for all interested people to contact as many authorities as we can find and express our views.

BTW, Egan, Mr Alexander's first name is Ron. He was also the WCE's first coach and was shafted for not winning the flag in the first year. So he and Mitch have something in common.