Scrum Law changes

[Ecky]

OK, a ref's perspective for my tuppence worth:

Firstly, U/19 call was crouch, touch & hold, engage. That's 3 calls. The new call is crouch, touch, pause, engage; 4 calls. This is, as I understand it, for all grades of community rugby. As well, obviously, as the S14 & international stuff on the telly.

At the "touch" call, the props touch AND THEN DROP THEIR ARMS, or retract them. They don't touch and get a grip on the other prop's shoulder or any other body part. Obviously it is a safety issue, as the ref is the one with the duty of care to the players (particularly at scrum time). I blame the goddam yanks, and their lawyer programs, who show us colonials that, no matter what an individual does wrong, they can almost always sue someone else for letting them do it. (apologies there to any American folk reading this - it's just an expression ....)

[Burgs]

So Ecky, is it illegal for the Prop to remain "touching"? ie he has to drop the arm?
I imagine so but I'm sure you have the official version....we would hope

[Ecky]

So Ecky, is it illegal for the Prop to remain "touching"? ie he has to drop the arm?
I imagine so but I'm sure you have the official version....we would hope

Well, according to an earlier post in this thread, [I]Rewrite law 20.1(h) as

The referee will call “crouch” then “touch”. The front rows crouch and using their outside arm each prop touches the point of the opposing prop’s outside shoulder. The props then withdraw their arms. The referee will then call “pause”. Following a pause the referee will then call “engage”. The front rows may then engage. The “engage” call is not a command but an indication that the front rows may come together when ready.[/I]

So, "The props then withdraw their arms". So if you are the prop, I am the ref and you leave your arm up, I shall blow my whistle and sternly talk to you. If it was the first scrum of the match I shall re-set it. If not then I shall probably free kick you.

I don't got the official version yet, it's not the season just yet! But in a couple of weeks, when we have our pre-season seminar, I would bet my left one that it is drummed into us that consistency is the key, both with the timing of the calls and tolerance to recalcitrants.

[frontrow]

You can bet your left one that shit props will find a way to get around it so they don`t have to drop there arm and the re apply it, as when the ref is on the other side of the scrum for example, which is coincidentally when most of the shennanigans usually occur anyway...

[Sagerian]

Oh, so everyone's been under the impression that the players remain holding onto the opposing props jersey? No no, the stuff I've been watching, the props touch then immediately remove their arm.

[Burgs]

"A left hook??? Nah mate sorry, I was trying to touch his shoulder honest!!!"

[frontrow]

Nice one mate, i`ve received my fair share of those accidental jabs and hooks...

[Ecky]

Nah, surely that won't happen...

I've reffed a lot of U/19 stuff where the "touch & hold" has been in for ages and, apart from explaining that the "hold" mean pause, or wait, not hang on to the other prop's jersey, it's pretty easy to (i) pick when they're not doing it right, and (ii) which one isn't doing it, even on the other side. Might take a little while for those refs who haven't done colts or below for a while, but I reckon you'll see it working in Perth just like you see it on the telly.

Pretty much...

[frontrow]

Lets wait and see mate, theres a lot of crafty old buggers out there in the engine room who have been getting away with a lot of stuff over the years, and i can`t see that trend ending any time soon, just new ways to get the advantage...

[mike_sheree@bigpond]

Its too much for forward to remember. Why not concentrate on flankers breaking off the scrum before the ball is out. Little halfbacks have no chance anymore. We used to call it offside!!!!!!!!!

[rick boyd]

If it stops constant bloody collapsed scrums, which are a compete waste of time and about as interesting as underwater chess, then it has to be a good thing.

[frontrow]

Its too much for forward to remember. Why not concentrate on flankers breaking off the scrum before the ball is out. Little halfbacks have no chance anymore. We used to call it offside!!!!!!!!!

Interesting first post...
Are you one of those parasites who live out on the flanks feeding off the forwards hard work and dropping the ball or kicking it away...Must be, but welcome along anyway mate, nice way to put yourself onside with the ex (and current) forwards, stop whining about offside and get the ball out quicker, thats the solution ...As for remembering, i`ve already forgot what i was talking about...And Rick, nothing will stop scrums collapsing for good, it`s just a fact of the game, it`ll happen if one prop isn`t strong enough, or the prop drives in on hookers, or someone pulls the other one down, or an all in brawl erupts, orthe surface is muddy and traction is lost...It is inevitable when two large masses hit each other something is gonna give, just depends wether it is forwards,backwards, sideways or down...

[.X.]

If it stops constant bloody collapsed scrums, which are a compete waste of time and about as interesting as underwater chess, then it has to be a good thing.

Honestly Rick I don't think it will.

Here is my opinion why.

First up lets me state for the Record. I have never played the game. I have packed a couple of scrums in the front row in training. I have also spent 4 seasons driving the Dominator Scrum machine soooo, I will not claim to be an expert but here is my thoughts on the matter.

Scrums collapse because how the Front Rows of both sides pack in to it, and its a direct result to a rule change that occurred before the 1999 Rugby World Cup.

The original Rule said that if you screwed a scrum past 90 degrees then you reset it.

(New Rule) If you screw a scrum past 90 degrees then you gain the Loose head and Feed.

Therefore teams are deliberately packing scrums in on angles or not binding correctly to facilitate the screwing of the scrum past 90 degrees or they are packing incorrectly to prevent the other pack to force them past 90 degrees.

At the end of the day its all about possession of the ball. Change the rule back to the way it was and it will clean up problems with the scrum immediately.

[frontrow]

Oh yeah, i forgot that point, well put exile, combined with my spouting of actual hands on experience above, you have now got an excellent overview of why it will not have any real effect on wether scrums collapse or not....

[rick boyd]

Oh yeah, i forgot that point, well put exile, combined with my spouting of actual hands on experience above, you have now got an excellent overview of why it will not have any real effect on wether scrums collapse or not....

Isn't the reasoning that packs going for the big hit are more likely to destabilise the scrum? That reeems to have some kind of logic behind it.