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Thread: New Zealand rugby has an excess of talent with nowhere to go

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    New Zealand rugby has an excess of talent with nowhere to go

    Rugby Pass, Ben Smith

    Rugby league and the NRL’s talent raid on rugby union schools has garnered much press as the popularity of the Warriors has boomed in recent years.

    With reports of U15 national rugby tournaments being attended in mass by NRL club scouts on the recruitment warpath, the reality is that New Zealand rugby has an excess of playing talent and a short supply of investment available.

    Should some of those players secure development deals and head down the rugby league pathway, this is a positive for both codes.

    Consider that Roosters star Joseph Manu is now headed to Japanese rugby, on a longer-term journey towards the All Blacks, and not one dollar has been invested by union into his development as a professional athlete.

    Much like Sonny Bill Williams who headed to France for his first stint, rugby in New Zealand could be set to benefit from Manu’s switch in the long run. While Manu was playing rugby league, another talented player was given one of the few spots in a union academy.

    Williams was one of many young Kiwis who moved to Australia at a young age to pursue league. He turned out to be a great All Black, a game-changer who helped deliver two Rugby World Cups. His offload in the 2015 final to Ma’a Nonu was one of the biggest plays in the final.

    Often forgotten is only a certain type of player will fit the criteria for NRL clubs, namely athletes who can become second rowers, centres and wingers. Safe to say that all tight five players will be off the radar. The number of halfbacks and first fives who transition into a league standoff or dummy half is rare.

    They are looking for the explosive athletes with power and speed, of which New Zealand rugby has an incredible oversupply of at schoolboy level. Yet at that age picking who will be NRL-capable is a crapshoot. The same goes for projecting early ability in professional rugby union.

    It’s a massive risk which New Zealand professional rugby teams know all too well. They’ve seen it play out time and time again, which is why they aren’t going to sign 14-year-olds. From the few that do get a shot in the pathway, there are still the many that don’t pan out for whatever reason.

    On the rare occasion they will go after a special talent, as was the case with Etene Nanai-Seturo, it was at an older age and he was able to turn back on his Warriors deal to pursue union.

    If you are a prospect looking to head to league, consider that union on both sides of the ditch actually has the better offering for top-tier talent between ages 18 and 20.

    The NRL scrapped their national U20 competition years ago due to the cost. Top rugby league talent at that age is playing park footy for a local feeder club.

    Union talent in New Zealand will play in the Super Rugby U20 tournament annually with the carrot of making the New Zealand U20s. The recently launched Rugby Championship U20 is a new international age-grade competition, a warm-up to the World Rugby U20 Championship.

    As the old saying goes, would you like to play in Campbelltown or Cape Town? This year’s crop of U20 players will have the latter and enjoy a formative life experience.

    Despite the NRL securing more broadcast money, if you are an elite prospect, the opportunities for U20 players in union far outweigh those in league. And that’s why for the most part, top union players will stay in union pathways.

    Academies within the New Zealand provincial unions are quite targeted. At most, the intake is around eight players a year. That leaves a ton of potential talent outside the system. And that is why there is an excess of talent available for NRL clubs to give an opportunity.

    To highlight just how much excess talent is available in New Zealand, consider the story of All Black wing Mark Tele’a.

    His story to the top is a remarkable tale of persistence and grit, a player who went from being invisible to one of the world’s best. No national age-grade teams were picking Tele’a.

    Consider that in 2019 at the previous Rugby World Cup, Tele’a wasn’t even playing Super Rugby. He had four seasons of NPC under his belt with North Harbour, plenty of time for Super teams to come knocking.

    For a then 23-year-old winger with a short career lifespan, that is usually a death knell. He trialled for the Hurricanes that year and was surplus to requirements for them.

    Getting a chance with the Blues in 2020, in two short years Tele’a cracked the All Blacks and was one of the best performers at the 2023 Rugby World Cup. His double against France on opening night must’ve been a surreal experience for him.

    Defenders simply can’t bring him down. He consistently tops the charts in Super Rugby and that translates to the international game. His breakout season for the All Blacks in 2023 came at age 27, the historical expiry date for All Black wingers. At a time when most are given the shoulder tap, Tele’a was getting the call-up.

    The bottom line is no one saw Tele’a coming, or he would’ve been doted on at Massey High School and NRL teams would have been falling over each other for his signature.

    And that is why NRL clubs can chase all the kids they like, they’ll miss more than they strike, and some of the ones that go are likely to come back.

    Schoolboy union stars Ngani Laumape and Roger Tuivasa-Sheck, who were once selected for the New Zealand schoolboys union side, ultimately left rugby league for a crack.

    The valid worry New Zealand rugby has is the commercial state of the game and it’s governance model, with provincial rugby losing nearly all relevance. There’s no denying it has spiralled into an unsustainable cash drain and public interest in the competition is at a rock bottom.

    If the professional game in New Zealand reversed its current trajectory, more players in New Zealand would have the chance to be given investment at the development level.

    Right now that’s simply not the case, but having the NRL pick up the pieces and invest in a few more players is a not necessarily a bad thing for union, and the young prospects.

    If NRL clubs were able to sign over half of the New Zealand schoolboys union side each year for the next five years, perhaps there’d be more concerns.

    They were able to recruit two starters last year, second five-eighth Caelys-Paul Putoko who has joined the Gold Coast Titans, and winger Tevita Naufahu who is at Redcliffe. It’s a great opportunity for the two players.

    New Zealand’s issues are not with the pipeline, the talent is overflowing. It’s well publicised the issue is with a broken operating model from a commercial perspective that isn’t expanding the pie to accomodate them all.

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    Immortal Contributor shasta's Avatar
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    I get a chuckle from these "X+Y= a pie" theories. Most of the players in these stories started out in junior RL. Joe Manu, SBW, Will Penisini, Joe Suaalii, Angus Crichton, Cameron Murray......RT-S is the one mentioned who was a genuine jnr Rugby star. His first act for the chookies Jersey Flegg was to zoom down his wing after a 5th tackle kick looking for a quick throw-in.
    I'm always pretty interested in watching how code switchers go in either game. But looking for solutions to retaining players in Rugby based on a false premise won't get a lot of success. It's more complex. As is how to develop RL players if they go to Rugby. SBW didn't succeed in Rugby on athletic ability alone. I think it more likely due to a smart coach at Toulon who put him outside Johnny Wilkinson for 2 years. Sam Burgess would likely have done similarly. Or if he'd been patiently schooled to learn 8 or 6. RT-S, I thought did reasonably well considering he was one of the best outside backs ever in RL. But some genius in NZ thought it would be better to play him in a specialist 12 shirt where he had no experience in either game.

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    Probably true for Australia shasta, but I get the feeling it is less the case in NZ where every child apparently wants to be an AB.
    Australia needs to up the game in identifying fringe AB eligible development (Schoolboy) players with a bit of "gold" in their veins and lure them to the Big Island with a clear pathway.
    Given RA can't even determine a clear pathway for our existing resident players, particularly in WA, probably very wishful thinking...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgs View Post
    Probably true for Australia shasta, but I get the feeling it is less the case in NZ where every child apparently wants to be an AB.
    Australia needs to up the game in identifying fringe AB eligible development (Schoolboy) players with a bit of "gold" in their veins and lure them to the Big Island with a clear pathway.
    Given RA can't even determine a clear pathway for our existing resident players, particularly in WA, probably very wishful thinking...
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    Immortal Contributor shasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgs View Post
    Probably true for Australia shasta, but I get the feeling it is less the case in NZ where every child apparently wants to be an AB.
    Australia needs to up the game in identifying fringe AB eligible development (Schoolboy) players with a bit of "gold" in their veins and lure them to the Big Island with a clear pathway.
    Given RA can't even determine a clear pathway for our existing resident players, particularly in WA, probably very wishful thinking...
    No argument here. But the thrust of the article was about masses of those evil mungos descending on junior Rugby tournaments. And to be fair, I'm 100% sure it happens, but I'd question to what extent as there doesn't seem to be too many rising the ranks. A quick check of the 2023 Kiwi Mungo squad shows Nelson Asofa Asofa-Solomona, Leo Thompson, Matt Timoko and Briton Nikora have Rugby backgrounds. I suppose you could include Jordan Rapana if cooling his heels at Pally for a year as a 22yo counts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shasta View Post
    No argument here. But the thrust of the article was about masses of those evil mungos descending on junior Rugby tournaments. And to be fair, I'm 100% sure it happens, but I'd question to what extent as there doesn't seem to be too many rising the ranks. A quick check of the 2023 Kiwi Mungo squad shows Nelson Asofa Asofa-Solomona, Leo Thompson, Matt Timoko and Briton Nikora have Rugby backgrounds. I suppose you could include Jordan Rapana if cooling his heels at Pally for a year as a 22yo counts.
    I think the inference is that it is a rising trend over the last couple of years on historical experience in NZ (as opposed to pretty common practice in Aus) so the first of this increase would by around 20-23 now, with a bunch of 16-19 year olds following in academy contracts.

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    Only three men have played for both the Wallabies and All Blacks. A fourth is set to join them

    By Iain Payten
    Sydney Morning Herald

    May 29, 2024 — 3.52pm

    Exclusive clubs can be hard to find in sport these days. In the early years, for example, you only needed one hand to count the people who had run a four-minute mile. These days hundreds do it every year, including school kids.

    David Campese was the second player to reach 100 Test caps, in 1996, and today there are 96.

    Play video 2:26 Rookie Reds winger Tim Ryan has scored nine tries in seven games and developed cult status as the "Junkyard Dog" in Brisbane.

    Until 1997, no cricketer had ever scored 200 in a one-day international. But then Belinda Clark did it and a dozen have since slugged a one-day double-century.

    Some clubs have maintained their exclusivity, however, including the small group of players who’ve achieved the rare feat of playing for both the Wallabies and the All Blacks.

    In the 121 years of Test rugby rivalry, there have been only three men who’ve become ‘Wallablacks’ – Ted Jessep in the 1930s, Des Connor in the 1950s and ’60s, and Owen Stephens in the 1970s. To put it into context, that’s as many people who’ve played for both India and Pakistan in cricket, and fewer than the five cricketers who’ve played on both sides of an Ashes contest, but all three point to the intense rivalries that keeps the numbers low.

    Alex Hodgman in Queensland kit.

    But a fourth Wallablack is poised to join the club in July, in the shape of Queensland front-rower Alex Hodgman.

    Hodgman, a loosehead prop from Auckland who played four Tests for the All Blacks in 2020, was recruited to the Queensland Reds this season and has been in strong form for the Les Kiss-coached side.

    Under World Rugby rules, Hodgman is eligible to switch allegiances to the Wallabies, via his Fijian-Australian father and the three years that have elapsed since his last Test.

    And all signs point to new Wallabies coach Joe Schmidt including the 30-year-old in his first squad for Tests against Wales and Georgia in July.

    Of the Wallabies’ loosehead props taken to the Rugby World Cup last year, Angus Bell is out for the season, Blake Schoupp has only just returned from injury, and James Slipper is also battling a calf problem.

    Hodgman, who will start in the No.1 jersey for Queensland against NSW in Sydney on Friday, was at the Blues when Schmidt served as defence coach in 2022, and has a high regard for the former Ireland coach. He hasn’t spoken with Schmidt about a potential Wallabies call-up but is open to the switch.

    “I am not too fussed about words, I just have to put my actions out to be considered,” Hodgman said.

    “There are a lot of good props around. I just have to focus on my work, and if that reward comes then that’s amazing. And if it doesn’t, it’s still amazing because I can hopefully have a go against Wales and Tonga here with the Reds, and I get family time. Either way is a win for me.”

    Evan "Ted" Jessep NZ (2) 1931, Aus (2) 1934

    Kiwi-raised hooker Ted Jessep holds a rare place in trans-Tasman rugby history. He was not only the first man to play for both the All Blacks and the Wallabies, Jessep was also in the first teams of both nations to win the Bledisloe Cup: in its first year for NZ in 1931, and then for Australia in 1934 after he emigrated.

    Owen Stephens NZ (1) 1968, Aus (5) 1973-74

    Owen Stephens was a flying winger from Tauranga who played for the All Blacks against France in 1968, before moving across the ditch and playing for Sydney, NSW and the Wallabies, in five Tests between 1973 and 74. He later switched codes and played for the Parramatta Eels.

    Des Connor Aus (12) 1957-59, NZ (12) 1961-64

    Des Connor remains the only player to have been an All Black after being capped as a Wallabies player first. The halfback debuted for Australia in 1957 alongside Arthur Summons, and after 12 Tests, moved to New Zealand for work as a teacher. He was picked by the All Blacks, and vice-captained the side 12 times.

    Bill Hardcastle* NZ (0) 1899, Aus (2) 1903

    An unofficial entrant, given Bill Hardcastle never played a Test for the All Blacks. But he toured Australia with New Zealand in 1897, before crossing the Tasman and - in those days - becoming instantly eligible. He played for the Wallabies twice, and later became a dual international; playing for the first Kangaroos in 1908, along with many ex-Wallabies teammates.


    Hodgman played against the Wallabies in three of his four Tests in 2020, coming off the bench in victories in Auckand and Sydney, and a defeat in Brisbane.

    Having belted out a fearsome haka in black, how would he feel about facing one while wearing a gold jersey?

    “I don’t know how I would react, to be honest,” Hodgman said.

    “Because I know how much it means, being an ex-All Black. To be honest, I have no idea what it would be like to witness that. But I know when I got to do it for the first time I just felt powerful and strong, and that guys around me felt the exact same thing. But I am not looking that far ahead.”

    After 65 caps for the Blues, and a Trans-Tasman title in 2020, Hodgman considered retirement after missing most of 2023 with a shoulder injury.

    But he opted instead for a change of scenery in Brisbane, where he had spent time while sidelined with family who live in Queensland. While it wasn’t a primary motivator, the option to pursue more exposure to Test rugby was a sweetener.

    Alex Hodgman getting ready for a scrum against the Wallabies in 2020.CREDIT:GETTY

    “To be honest, I just want to keep pushing myself as a player. After making the All Blacks, I missed out the next year and when this opportunity came for the Reds, I thought: ‘Why not?’” Hodgman said.

    “My whole family has now moved over, we are all pretty much neighbours.

    “I have always been confident in my ability. If you go and work hard, that’s the first step. I wasn’t too sure about the coaching and the system [in Australia] but I thought, well, effort will get me through.

    “But when I got to meet the group, I was like ‘these guys are awesome’. I have learned so much and for sure it has been a really good move coming over here.”

    While Queensland have Hodgman and Fijian Test player Pene Ravai as their looseheads, the injury-plagued Waratahs have called in ex-Waratahs veteran Paddy Ryan to start at prop in their final game of the season at Allianz Stadium.

    Ryan, 35, was a member of the 2014 premiership Waratahs team and has been playing in the USA and Japan since finishing with NSW in 2018. He also came back for a similar four-game loan stint in 2022 with the Tahs.

    “It was great of Paddy to answer the SOS and his experience in the front-row will be invaluable,” Coleman said.

    https://archive.is/20240529055633/ht...29-p5jhi9.html

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