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Thread: Competition going forward

  1. #1
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    Competition going forward

    Ok we have two more games before the pointy end!

    I want the Rugby nuts to get their heads together and tell me will we join the NZ mob once - COVIDSafe into the future or are we to keep it as is- due to finance, etc and add another team either from another state or see if we can support a team like Fiji into the fold for Super Au? I never believed in shrinking the footprint of the sport- donít get me wrong dilution May not be the answer either. In any case just a question to be honest to find out peopleís opinions as there is no hard and fast answers.

    Just having 5 in a comp - I think would be more interesting with 6-8 as far as ladder position and finals for!

    Problem being we donít have the cattle from what I understand!

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    Iíd like to see how we go against NZ before deciding.. I am enjoying super rugby AU though so maybe as you say one more team from somewhere like Fiji or Japan and then if this years NZ stuff goes well stick with that?

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    Immortal GIGS20's Avatar
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    A couple of years ago (3) everybody was saying that the idea of conferences was confusing and unfair, but that's essentially what we have now.

    I would like to see trans Tasman super rugby become a 2 conference system, where NZ and aus basically do what they want domestically and play 1 round against the teams in the other conference. Finals series should include the top X teams out of each conference, with a potential wild card round for the teams that are close to play each other for a chance to make it in.

    That way, each comp can add whoever they want, there'll be some guarantee that Aussie sides will make the final and if the kiwis are so concerned about missing spots even though they're so much better they'll clearly win all the wild card games and the minor finals so that they can play against each other for the trophy.

    Unfortunately the idea contains the word conference so I'll be shouted out of the room

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    I reckon that there is not quite enough teams in the aussie conference - it would be nice to be a bit longer, and a bit more variety.

    I also like the idea of an international series (or even two). the tops teams go in to play for the trophy, and the bottom teams continue to play for the second string plate. It seems like winning the best of the losers, but it would keep more games in action, and continue to build experience and skills in all teams.

    how the intl. teams would work is the challenge - the timings which different comps around the world play will cause issues, but it seems like it would have to be a southern hemisphere competition, so that they can all line up.

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    Immortal GIGS20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palitu View Post
    I reckon that there is not quite enough teams in the aussie conference - it would be nice to be a bit longer, and a bit more variety.

    I also like the idea of an international series (or even two). the tops teams go in to play for the trophy, and the bottom teams continue to play for the second string plate. It seems like winning the best of the losers, but it would keep more games in action, and continue to build experience and skills in all teams.

    how the intl. teams would work is the challenge - the timings which different comps around the world play will cause issues, but it seems like it would have to be a southern hemisphere competition, so that they can all line up.
    Something like that is the inherent advantage of a conference based system. The Kiwis can add Fiji and "Pasifika" (essentially following on from the development work done by GRR) and the Aussies can chase the money from places like Japan etc without affecting the inherent level of the competition, because the conferences are essentially separate competitions.

    Conferences could even include teams that play the domestic rounds and miss the cross conference rounds but that would make those teams ineligible for the finals (except possibly by wildcard)

    The conference system doesn't work when there is an assumption that the points scored in each conference are of equal value. To make a conference work you need to have the top x teams from each conference qualify for the final series even if it means the finals include some sort of round robin format (which I wouldn't recommend)

    I'd think something like this would be the go

    For 5 team conferences
    Top team in each conference qualifies automatically and gets a bye round
    Second team in each conference, plays third team in opposite conference for admission to the finals (wild card round) Loser eliminated
    First team in each conference plays winner of the wild card match which included the second team of the opposite conference (Semi Final round) Loser eliminated
    Winners of Semi Final play in the final

    voila, if the Kiwis complain about that, they're only concerned about their ability to win consecutive games, because they can lock out the semi finals by winning all the wild card matches.

    If the conferences add teams, then the finals series can be extended (or not) but it's important to stick to the model which basically chops the best performing teams off the top of each conference equally. for example 3 teams out of 5 are eligible for entry either by automatic progression or wild card which I think is as much chance as you would want if the conferences blew out to say 7 teams (not hard, we'd only need to find one more team for Aussie conference and we'd already be pretty much there) you might consider taking the top 4, 3 plays 4 in wildcard, 2 plays winner of 3&4 1 Plays 2, then final it only adds a round to the finals and still has integrity

    Alternately, you could split the table at the finals series, keep the top 3 as finalists (lose the term wild card) and run a similar model for the bottom teams as well. It might not add much value though because I would think the Kiwis will destroy the second half competition every year, the depth they bring to the table are their strength. Australia might be able to field 1 team that can compete with them on a good day, maybe 2 that can not be embarrassed, but (as much as I love the Force) the bottom 3 kiwi teams play at a completely different level to the bottom 3 Aussie teams.

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    (formerly known as Coach) Your Humble Servant Darren's Avatar
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    If this format is a temporary thing, how about a Barbarians team for a sixth ...

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    Immortal GIGS20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darren View Post
    If this format is a temporary thing, how about a Barbarians team for a sixth ...
    I'd think likely starters might beTongaSamoaAsia Pacific DragonsHong KongSouth China tigersWho all have had functioning operations at some point in the recent pastMalaysia Valke existed but seemed to be less engaged with the locals than the tigers, so I'm not sure about them.That's without considering any Japanese involvement.I don't think an Aussie baa baas would work, the force are a bit short of Australians atm and that is going to need to be built. Not having an nrc makes that even harder, due to the lack of high level rugby.

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    I think they should just go with something along these lines

    Conference 1

    Force
    Reds
    Tahs
    Rebels
    Brumbies
    Japan/Sunwolves

    Conference 2

    Crusaders
    Hurricanes
    Highlanders
    Chiefs
    Blues
    Pacific team

    Play teams from own conference twice and teams from opposite conference once. Total games = 16. Top 2 from each conference in to semi finals.

    The previous conference system was an issue but I think that was more down to the time difference and travel

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    I think the sheep shaggers had an issue with inferior Aussie and South African teams making the final series ahead of the blues

    That's why I thought a wild card series between the third placed teams would work, it'd get more teams playing and the kiwis could bask in their arrogance a bit

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    I quite like the current format, so would like to see both Super Rugby AU and Aoteroa remain next year with 6 teams, so the byes can just be removed.
    Keep trans tasman as is (play each team in the other competition once followed by finals).

    Then going forward, ideally increase both to 8 team competitions, and have the trans-tasman comp being the top 4 of each playing each other and the bottom 4 of each playing each other.

    When the increase to 8 happens, it would be good to get at least 1 more Aussie team, whether that be based in Adelaide, Western Sydney or somewhere in Qld (Gold Coast / Townsville perhaps). The more opportunities for fringe Australian players to get exposure to higher levels the better I reckon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiraag View Post
    When the increase to 8 happens, it would be good to get at least 1 more Aussie team, whether that be based in Adelaide, Western Sydney or somewhere in Qld (Gold Coast / Townsville perhaps). The more opportunities for fringe Australian players to get exposure to higher levels the better I reckon.
    for that to work I reckon you'd need to find a way of forcing Qld and NSW to spread talent a bit better, It's fair that they should have first pick of their Juniors, however you simply won't get enough quality players out of any other pathway to sustain another team.

    Perhaps actually ensuring the salary cap is effective and changing up the broken ARU contracting system as well as providing incentives for players to head to the expansion team might do it.

    Oh and actually surviving the inevitable period where we're much worse collectively until the expansion teams all build up their playing rosters to the point where they can compete with the Kiwi teams.

    Me personally, I'd rather see the NRC return as a potential competition for teams from the other states to make entry to professional rugby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GIGS20 View Post
    for that to work I reckon you'd need to find a way of forcing Qld and NSW to spread talent a bit better, It's fair that they should have first pick of their Juniors, however you simply won't get enough quality players out of any other pathway to sustain another team.
    Something like a draft? they seem to work quite well to move players around the country.

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    Any form of expansion simply won't happen with the development system currently in place. Far more likely they will contract again than that they'll expand. There has to be somewhere for players with potential to get professional development, and it would have to happen well in advance of another SR franchise. Club rugby just doesn't cut it.

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    Lots of good ideas here. I'm not sure what the future broadcast deals on both sides of the ditch look like. But that will decide what they are willing to fund.
    It would be interesting to know how Saturday's game rated since it was not opposed by either NRL nor AFL on FTA. It is also possible to position the OZ finals the same way by playing them in the afternoon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GIGS20 View Post
    for that to work I reckon you'd need to find a way of forcing Qld and NSW to spread talent a bit better, It's fair that they should have first pick of their Juniors, however you simply won't get enough quality players out of any other pathway to sustain another team.

    Perhaps actually ensuring the salary cap is effective and changing up the broken ARU contracting system as well as providing incentives for players to head to the expansion team might do it.

    Oh and actually surviving the inevitable period where we're much worse collectively until the expansion teams all build up their playing rosters to the point where they can compete with the Kiwi teams.

    Me personally, I'd rather see the NRC return as a potential competition for teams from the other states to make entry to professional rugby.
    Yep, agree with all of that. A draft system would be great, and having the salary cap include at least a portion of wallaby top ups. Higher draft picks for finishing lower, having less wallabies and start up teams.

    And we definitely need the NRC or something to bridge the gap between club and super rugby. Would be great if GRR was resurrected, as it's tough to see RA squeezing the cost of the NRC into their budget the way things are now

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