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Thread: Trans-Tasman speculation

  1. #121
    Champion andrewM's Avatar
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    Super League set up teams in AFL-dominated Adelaide and Perth, but they were doomed to failure because they had little grass-roots support to provide a solid foundation.
    Not an accurate statement on two fronts - The Reds were already in place and had pretty good local support

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  2. #122
    Immortal jargan83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewM View Post
    Not an accurate statement on two fronts - The Reds were already in place and had pretty good local support
    No idea about the grass roots support but the Adelaide Rams got some decent crowds didn't they?

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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIGS20 View Post
    Bret has done a nice little fantasy piece there which will scare the living shit out of some, but contains nothing of substance.

    Firstly, like everything Bret writes, its pure speculation and supposition without a shred of evidence.
    Apart from that, his understanding of the "Superleague War", the underlying premise to his article is amazingly ignorant of the facts. It had very little to do with rationalising the number of teams in Sydney and everything to do with a plot to gaining Pay TV content for Murdoch, which Kerry Packer would never give up without a monumental battle. That's what he got. The Western Reds were set up by the ARL not Newscorp. The problem was the people who put the bid together exaggerated their financial position and volunteered to pay visiting teams' travel costs. They were virtually trading insolvent from the beginning and had no choice but to fall into the Murdoch camp. To say there was no grass roots support in Perth is stupid as well as ignorant. This battle is not about a fight over TV content. It's about two organising bodies fighting over who holds the most attractive begging bowl.

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  4. #124
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    Correct on all fronts Shasta! I might also add that at the time Ken Arthurson was running rampant with the ARL and there was also a lot of coin being held back from the traditional ARL clubs and the rebel players from superleague could see the earnings going nowhere with the ARL.

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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by boof1050 View Post
    Correct on all fronts Shasta! I might also add that at the time Ken Arthurson was running rampant with the ARL and there was also a lot of coin being held back from the traditional ARL clubs and the rebel players from superleague could see the earnings going nowhere with the ARL.
    The ARL had threatened to kick out the Raiders, Bulldogs and the Sharks for not signing five year loyalty agreements.

    Even more ridiculous was that the Raiders had a representative level squad, Bulldogs were the reigning premiers and the Sharks had two of the most marketable men in the country Mark McGaw and ET.

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  6. #126
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    Twiggy and BoP make the news in the NZH

    Super Rugby Aotearoa: Australian billionaire linked to sensational bid for sixth New Zealand franchise in 2021

    21 Aug, 2020 4:45pm
    by Liam Napier, sports writer for NZME

    Could there be six Kiwi teams in Super Rugby in 2021? A New Zealand provincial rugby union is making a bold play to join next season – and Australian mining billionaire Andrew Forrest is on board. Liam Napier reports

    The Bay of Plenty Rugby Union, in conjunction with Australian mining billionaire Andrew Forrest, is believed to have made a bold expression of interest to potentially form a sixth New Zealand Super Rugby team next year - as D-Day to determine the future of the game's domestic landscape fast approaches.

    The Herald understands the Bay of Plenty union is involved with a consortium which includes Chinese investment and Global Rapid Rugby, the competition owned by Forrest, to launch a sixth New Zealand team for 2021.

    Forrest, one of Australia's richest people with an estimated net worth of $7.5 billion, started Global Rapid Rugby last year before the 2020 edition was canceled due to the Covid-19 pandemic.

    Last month, New Zealand Rugby outlined a future model for Super Rugby based on the results of the Aratipu Report, which favours a competition between eight and 10 teams including the five Kiwi franchises.

    NZR said it has a "huge desire" to include a Pasifika team, while the rest of the competition would be made up by Australian rugby sides (between two to four teams).

    With the NZ Rugby board set to meet next weekend to review the bids and determine a format for 2021, time is running out to get a sixth Kiwi team off the ground.

    Bay of Plenty rugby chief executive Mike Rogers did not return calls but several senior NZ Rugby sources confirmed negotiations between the respective parties were on-going.

    Earlier this year, the Bay of Plenty union teamed up with the China Rugby Football Association to form the China Lions - the final team added to Forrest's Global Rapid Rugby.

    The vision for the Lions was to help retain New Zealand talent by providing another pathway outside Super Rugby. The team's home base was to be Rotorua Stadium but they managed one outing before Covid-19 travel restrictions hit, defeating a team of local Fijian players 29-22 in Suva.

    With the structures for the Lions already in place it is believed Bay of Plenty has decided to push ahead and express interest in the team joining the five established New Zealand Super Rugby sides next year.

    This latest development comes after the Herald revealed the Asia Pacific Dragons, who were also involved in Global Rapid Rugby in 2019, logged a separate expression of interest with NZ Rugby to join Super Rugby from 2022.

    There are, however, major concerns surrounding the competitiveness of both the Bay of Plenty-led China Lions and Asian Pacific Dragons when pitted against the quality of the Crusaders, Blues, Highlanders, Hurricanes and the Chiefs.

    The other potential sixth New Zealand-based Super Rugby team next year is a Pacific side. Several options are on the table, with NZ Rugby committed to this venture at some stage.

    The Herald understands a feasibility study is being conducted to determine what it would take to ensure a Pacific team is viable and whether it would be ready by 2021 or 2022.

    The Tracy Atiga-led Kanaloa Hawai'i bid is understood to have been asked to collaborate with others.

    It seems increasingly likely Super Rugby Aotearoa may be forced to continue with the status quo and the addition of more bye weeks in a March to May window.

    Should that holding pattern scenario eventuate the expressions of interest approach to NZR's initial vision for an eight-to-10 team Super Rugby competition next year will ultimately hit a brick wall, and largely serve to aggravate their long established Sanzaar partners.

    Rugby Australia remains steadfast in refusing to drop any of its five franchises for a potential transtasman joint venture partnership, while South Africa Rugby is also believed to be miffed by the NZR's "go it alone" approach amid the financially challenging Covid-19 confines.

    While domestic competitions for the respective Sanzaar partners appear the likely approach for 2021, plans remain in place for a regional cross-over tournament involving the leading sides from New Zealand, Australia, Japan and Argentina. Travel restrictions permitting, this cross-over tournament could be staged during the middle of the domestic competitions or at their conclusion.

    The major caveat hanging over future plans, particularly for 2022 and beyond, is the fact broadcast deals need to be renegotiated.

    For NZR that comes with a price tag of $500 million over the next five years.

    The deal sold to Sky Television last year for a 14-team round-robin Super Rugby format from 2021 to 2025 is now obsolete, and NZR will be desperate to retain the same level of investment from their broadcast partner.

    While Sky now has less content, NZR will argue the quality is vastly enhanced which is reflected by the 65 per cent lift in viewership figures for Super Rugby Aotearoa.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/new...ectid=12358580

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  7. #127
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    Stuff'd keepin' it real

    Super Rugby: NZ Rugby prepared to keep an open mind on five Australian teams

    Paul Cully
    05:00, Aug 22 2020

    A new Super Rugby competition with five teams from Australia is still a possibility, with New Zealand Rugby open-minded on how any teams take part.

    While NZ Rugby has been painted a hard-hearted ‘master’ telling Australia to cut two or three teams, Stuff can reveal its thinking is far more nuanced and flexible than that.

    There is a pragmatic recognition that all parties are currently operating in an information vacuum, with uncertainty around what the Covid-19 landscape will look like, and what Australia can bring to the table from a broadcast-dollar perspective.

    Crucially, though, there is no hard and fast position at the top of NZ Rugby that Rugby Australia must slice teams such as the Melbourne Rebels from the competition, despite the Aratipu review’s preference for an 8-10 team model.

    That viewpoint, and the underlying premise that the financials for all teams in the competition must simply stack up, may take some heat out of New Zealand v Australia narrative – described as “a pissing competition” by former NZ Rugby boss David Moffett - when the reality is both parties regard each other as key long-term partners.

    NZ Rugby’s announcement in July that it would prefer an 8-10 model, with a Pacific Island team a “priority” was also received poorly across the ditch, and Australia has repeatedly said it would not fill in any “expressions of interest” to be part of that competition.

    That raised the risk Australia would simply walk away, but both countries also now appear to moving towards the same page on high performance.

    It is broadly accepted that Super Rugby Aotearoa is a level up from Super Rugby AU, but Australia's argument that it has a group of talented youngsters coming through its system has not landed on deaf ears at NZ Rugby.

    Last year's strong Junior Wallabies side, and in particular their 24-0 win against their Kiwi counterparts, has become a reference point for this thinking.

    In addition, there remains the possibility that the uncertainty in overseas markets, particularly Argentina, could result in high-calibre overseas players seeking opportunities in Australia.

    However, while much water still has to flow under bridge in terms of the structure of the trans-Tasman competition, the ongoing challenge presented by Covid-19 is increasing the chances that any new competition will have to wait until 2022 for lift-off.

    Highlanders CEO Roger Clark has already said he does not think a cross-border competition will occur in 2021, and this reflects a broader – and growing – consensus that is forming at high levels on both sides of the ditch.

    Under the reasonable assumption that the New Zealand and Australian governments will still require a two-week quarantine period for new arrivals next March, a trans-Tasman competition will be impossible, as each fixture would effectively take a month out of the calendar.

    Instead, a re-run of Super Rugby Aotearoa and Super Rugby AU is increasingly likely, especially with ratings for the former competition booming.

    But far from this being a disaster, it is being viewed as a potential opportunity for Australia's younger players to develop at their own pace in preparation for a full launch of a trans-Tasman/Pacific competition the following year.

    The viability of a Pacific Islands team is another unknown in the equation, with the applications yet to be fully assessed. It's understood that the bids will be discussed at a NZ Rugby board meeting at the end of the month.

    The chances of The Rugby Championship progressing in New Zealand appear to be solid, however, with no change in the country's status as Sanzaar's preferred host, and NZ Rugby awaiting final sign-off from the government.

    But, as with most things this year, it is Covid-permitting.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...stralian-teams

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  8. #128
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    All Blacks coach calls for five Australian sides

    YESTERDAY AT 2:13 PM SUPER RUGBY
    by AAP


    All Blacks coach Ian Foster has strongly backed Australian involvement in any new Super Rugby competition created next year or after the COVID-19 pandemic.

    Relations between New Zealand and Australia have soured since the publication of a New Zealand Rugby review which recommended only two Australian teams be invited to join an eight-team tournament which might replace the existing Super Rugby competition from as early as 2021.

    All five New Zealand teams would remain, along with a new Pacific Islands team.

    Rugby Australia was angered by the recommendation, calling it paternalistic. If a tournament was organised along the lines suggested, Australia would lose three of its current Super Rugby teams.

    New Zealand Rugby has been largely unapologetic.

    For some time NZR has felt the poor form of Australia's teams has been discouraging to fans and damaging to Super Rugby.

    It argues that after the financial hit rugby has taken during the pandemic, future tournaments will have to maximise spectator appeal.

    Rugby Australia has called for patience, saying Australian teams will improve given time but New Zealand is sceptical.

    Foster stepped into the debate Sunday as a diplomat, insisting he has seen improvement in Australian teams during their domestic Super Rugby tournament this season.

    Both Australia and New Zealand organised domestic Super Rugby tournaments when the coronavirus pandemic ended the full Super Rugby season in March.

    "The difference between their first couple of rounds to their last couple has been dramatic," Foster said.

    "From an All Blacks coach's perspective we've seen a significant rise in standard in their competition.

    "That bodes well for a Super competition but also for us as we head into a Bledisloe series."

    While New Zealand's Super Rugby Aoteroa was hugely popular with fans, it is not seen as sustainable.

    Foster said a new format is needed and Australia should be part of any solution

    "A lot of work is in place saying 'what does a really sustainable competition look like?'," he said.

    "Everyone is taking their time to get that right.

    "It's unlikely to happen in 2021 anyway."

    READ MORE: Hold up! New Zealand's North v South clash postponed

    "What we do know is if we get the formula right we've got the ability to get our fans engaged and the players excited, then we're going to continue to get the product we saw this year.

    "We need variety in the competition. We've got five really strong franchises here and enough talent to fill that five.

    "But adding a few more from Australia in whatever format and whatever number is a logical step."

    https://www.rugby.com.au/news/2020/0...ter-five-teams

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  9. #129
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    Personally, I wonder if there isn't an obvious arrangement that picks up all their pieces. Both countries have talked about a domestic comp, so have that first followed by the TT comp with SoO teams from Australia. Gives NZ the stronger sides, gives Aus the supposedly big paydays when they have the all Aus match-ups. Meanwhile, GRR runs during the second part while the ES go off on their club championship thrashwank.

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  10. #130
    Immortal GIGS20's Avatar
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    I think Fossie has missed the obvious impact that the overall competitive level of the competition has on performance.

    As my example, I would point to the Force's performances in Global Rapid Rugby. The general competition standard was lower (as evidenced by the outcomes the Force have been experiencing on the field) but the Force were winning, often by A LOT. during this time, the Force were playing attractive attacking rugby which excited the crowds and made the commentators reach for the dictionary to expand their list of superlatives.

    Fast forward to the Force playing in Super Rugby AU, with a squad that hasn't been exposed to the pace, the size of the bodies and the youth. The Force started off playing the brand of rugby we wanted them to, aggressive, attacking, powerful. but as the season has gone on and the wins haven't been coming, they have moved more to playing low risk, territory rugby hoping that the opposition will make a mistake and then hoping that they are good enough to score a point or two off the back of it.

    I'm not blaming the Force for this, they were put in contracting limbo by the antics of Rugby Australia and the way they were forced to build a competition out of thin air with teams that didn't exist and/or were based in global rugby wastelands. They did their best, and the rugby was exciting. Once the other teams came up to the Force's standard it's likely the rugby would still be exciting, but it would likely not be able to score points against the Aussie teams due to the nature of the competition.

    In contrast, all of the traditional SR teams started the season playing the way they've always played, boring, stodgy, territory-based, error-hoping rugby which the Force looked good against, but didn't get the wins. Now, even the Tahs are playing pretty backline based rugby and scoring some points (still going down to the Brums)

    What will happen when NZ meets Aus in Trans-Tasman Rugby? The better teams will start to (or continue to) play pretty rugby and the shit ones will revert to error-hope.

    Therefore the standard will be determined by the mob that have decided not to fuck their entire elite rugby development system for the meaningless title of best team in the worst comp. I have a guess at who that might be, do you?

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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyS View Post
    Personally, I wonder if there isn't an obvious arrangement that picks up all their pieces. Both countries have talked about a domestic comp, so have that first followed by the TT comp with SoO teams from Australia. Gives NZ the stronger sides, gives Aus the supposedly big paydays when they have the all Aus match-ups. Meanwhile, GRR runs during the second part while the ES go off on their club championship thrashwank.

    You do realise that the club championship thrashwank you speak of is set to include Perth clubs, right? Not that I'd be unhappy if GRR or some version of it continued.

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  12. #132
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    Perhaps "a" Perth Club, but certainly not ALL Perth Clubs.

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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by WCRugger View Post
    You do realise that the club championship thrashwank you speak of is set to include Perth clubs, right? Not that I'd be unhappy if GRR or some version of it continued.
    Sure...so which Perth club is it that you want to win the Premiership every year?

    Or are you expecting that they'll pick up all their own costs, in which case what is the sequence in which you think the clubs should go bankrupt?

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  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyS View Post
    Sure...so which Perth club is it that you want to win the Premiership every year?

    Or are you expecting that they'll pick up all their own costs, in which case what is the sequence in which you think the clubs should go bankrupt?
    I'm going to call it option 1

    I think this bullshit pandering to the Shute Shield will result in the first PPL season after announcement becoming the highest stakes game in town, with clubs fighting tooth and nail to be the fortunate group to go over and get their ass handed to them by a professional outfit. They will return, however, with the bargaining power to essentially pick any player in Perth for season 2 and the knowledge that, if they ever hope to compete at that level, they need to savage every other team in the comp.

    They will suck up all available talent in the attempt to compete on a level playing field, thus cementing themselves as the one team that wins the premiership every year. This will continue until they fold or until the rest of the clubs band together and force RugbyWA to intervene somehow.

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  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyS View Post
    Sure...so which Perth club is it that you want to win the Premiership every year?

    Or are you expecting that they'll pick up all their own costs, in which case what is the sequence in which you think the clubs should go bankrupt?

    The structure and size of the competition will be dependent on funding via TV broadcast and sponsorship.

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