Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 55

Thread: Stronger as 3

  1. #31
    Player
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Far South-West of Sydney
    Posts
    231
    vCash
    5260000
    Quote Originally Posted by WCRugger View Post
    It would depend on the level of investment. If they had the level right and there was the desire for a 2nd Aus team they could do it by importing talent while setting up the local academy systems and working with grassroots. But it would absolutely require that level of investment at the grassroots level.

    If it wasn't quite at that level then the semi-pro/pro development pathway would be the go backed by significant investment in grassroots development. I've actually been having a development discussion in relation to US Rugby recently. Particularly on how to kick start development and fundraising. I don't know if it's done elsewhere but Field Hockey in NSW runs a development program that is open to all comers regardless of skill level as a means of upskilling everyone. It runs over 10 sessions and costs roughly about $25 a session. I think it could be something worthwhile trying in Sth Australia. The goal in the conversation I've been having revolves around taking the money raised via such a program would then be used to establish new schools programs and youth clubs in which ever one of the 8 competitive regions it is based in the States.

    This could be done in Sth Australia as a means of getting more schools playing and establishing things like club starter kits etc. Ultimately, as you build the base and draw more into the upskilling program the amount of money available for further investment in getting more people playing would grow.
    And just another thought here on the potential of a Sth Australian squad. If RA were to do away with the Rebels and go to three it could open up the ability for RA to effectively contract much of the U20s squad. Could be a good option to get them in regular competition mixed in with EPS players from the SR teams. This would provide GRR with a 2nd Aus team without the need to cover the wages. Only things like the logistics of housing, travel and game day.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  2. #32
    Veteran Bakkies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    3,341
    vCash
    5128000
    Quote Originally Posted by WCRugger View Post
    I'm not going to argue development because it's certainly something RA has failed to do at any real adequate level but let's be 100% realistic here. We have the current 5 teams drawing primarily from just two nurseries in Sydney and Brisbane. It may be inconvenient for some to accept but it's the truth nonetheless. It's certainly unsustainable. For it to have really worked the respective bases would have to have produced the majority of their roster from within.

    How I look at this is that we'd be better off going to 3 in SR and have RA look to cooperate more with GRR by removing some of the roadblocks to a 2nd Aus based GRR squad. I know the Rebels are a bit of a sour spot here but they could be removed from SR and look to find backing to enter GRR while sourcing talent both internationally and direct from their own club scene to play at a level more suited to where it currently sits. Which is at present above the NRC but below that of SR.

    That's not a knock against the GRR by the way. It's been very entertaining to watch but it is still very much a start up league and will take time in which to grow. But doing this would assist in allowing the respective club competitions to grow with players knowing that they have a direct pathway to the point where they start to produce an even more steady stream of talent. Even more so than the WA scene has to date. This would also allow for the Sydney and Brisbane nurseries to have a reduced burden on producing 65% of 5 teams worth of talent.
    WCR the Tahs have recruited poorly since 1996. They know they can’t recruit everyone to a limited squad in terms of numbers. For a number of years squad numbers were down to 33 so they had to recruit smartly which they never did. As a result they ended up with an ageing squad and ignored pathways such as the NRC by signing players well in to their 30s.

    Stating that the Tahs affected by the other states recruiting is not an argument given the limited squad size and most years you would only need to bring in a small number of players to cover departures which is what the Brumbies did. The Brumbies knew they had some ageing players in the backs so recruited young flyhalfs and wingers. The NRC was also used to build depth. The Tahs instead brought in Dad’s Army recruited from Qld, NSW, NZ and SA.

    The Brumbies learned a lesson from 2010/11 by not signing established so called star players. Moore was only signed due to Sa’ia Fainga’a going to the Reds. Later on Pocock signed after Hooper left. Those signings were out of necessity.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  3. #33
    Rookie
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    perth
    Posts
    144
    vCash
    5188000
    With Clynes ego I doubt he’ll admit anything like the Rebels failure as a club . He’d rather let the whole show go belly up first I fear .
    Nick McArdle asked the question briefly at the Rebels post match ...Is it Culture..,but moved quickly on without an answer . Of course it is .

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  4. #34
    Veteran sittingbison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    North Freo
    Posts
    2,766
    vCash
    5242000
    Anything misguided about this article? Is misguided the word I was looking for? Perhaps deluded?

    ...Bret Harris
    Tue 18 Jun 2019 04.00 AEST
    The Guardian
    Super Rugby
    Calls for Super Rugby cull as Australian teams fail to fire again

    There are calls for Australia to cut another Super Rugby team after only one side, the Brumbies, reached the playoffs this season.

    This comes just two years after the axing of the Western Force, but it appears Australia does not have sufficient depth to support even four Super Rugby teams let alone five.

    The Brumbies won the Australian conference title for the third time in the last four years, securing a home quarter-final against South African side, the Sharks, on Saturday night. Quite frankly, the Brumbies were the only Australian team that looked like playoff material.

    The Melbourne Rebels and the NSW Waratahs both had mathematical chances of reaching the top eight heading into last weekend’s final round, but were thrashed by New Zealand opposition and finished 11th and 12th respectively.

    Australia’s fourth team, the Queensland Reds, came second last, finishing only above the Japanese Sunwolves, who will be kicked out of the competition after next season.

    A lot can be done to improve Australia’s Super Rugby teams, such as better talent identification and coaching, but the results indicate that Australia needs another cull.

    Australia cannot afford to carry four teams, especially with the player exodus to Europe and Japan continuing to weaken the playing ranks. When Australia expanded to Perth (2006) and Melbourne (2011) it ignored the trend of Australian players heading overseas.

    In hindsight, it was perhaps unwise to add two extra Super Rugby teams at a time when Australian players were beginning to leave our shores en masse. The trickle has become a flood and there is no sign of it abating any time soon.

    It is not just the quantity of players leaving, but the quality. It used to be just veteran Wallabies at the end of their Test careers taking rich deals in Europe, but now Wallabies such as Samu Kerevi and Adam Coleman are leaving in the prime of their playing lives.

    Australia started Super Rugby in 1996 with three teams and should go back to three teams, but which side would you cut?

    It would be inconceivable to cut the Waratahs or the Reds. NSW and Queensland are rugby heartland states. Between them they produce the vast majority of professional players in Australia and have the most corporate and public support, at least when they are performing well.

    Australia would have no choice but to cut the Brumbies or the Rebels. For different reasons this would not be ideal either.

    Australia needs three highly competitive Super Rugby teams to rekindle interest in the game at the provincial level and to provide a solid platform for the Wallabies, but it also needs to keep the Brumbies and Melbourne.

    With two Super Rugby titles in their trophy cabinet, the Brumbies are the most successful Australian team in the history of the competition and their brand is famous around the world, but they are based in a city of just 400,000 people.

    It is a mystery how the Brumbies not just continue to survive, but thrive, in a town with such a small population and limited corporate presence.

    The Rebels, on the other hand, have a history of spending big, but delivering little. But Melbourne does offer enormous potential to grow the game in a city of five million people.

    Instead of cutting the Brumbies or the Rebels, Rugby Australia should look at New Zealand’s Super Rugby franchise model as a possible option to reduce the number of teams.

    In Australia we often refer to Kiwi teams as the “Canterbury” Crusaders or the “Auckland” Blues, but these are misnomers. Canterbury and Auckland are just one of several provinces that make up their respective Super Rugby franchises.

    For example, the Crusaders franchise represents the regions of Buller, Canterbury, Mid-Canterbury, South Canterbury, Tasman and West Coast, not just Canterbury.

    In the same way, the Brumbies and the Rebels could merge to form a new South-East Australian franchise, playing home games in Canberra and Melbourne. The Brumbies’ valuable brand would be retained, while the game could continue to develop in a potentially lucrative, but largely untapped, market in Melbourne.

    The axing of the Force has resulted in only incremental improvement in the remaining four Australian Super Rugby teams. The main beneficiary of the Force’s departure have been the Rebels, who got most of their players and their coach, Dave Wessels, and lifted themselves off the bottom of the table.

    Another cull is necessary to make all of Australia’s Super Rugby teams competitive. Australia needs at least two teams in the playoffs every year, not just to boost Super Rugby’s profile, but also to help prepare the Wallabies for Test rugby.

    It would be sad to see the Brumbies go and a waste to lose a growth market like Melbourne. If Australia follows the New Zealand franchise model, it can have both as well as three highly competitive and marketable Super Rugby teams that will provide the platform for Australian rugby to prosper on and off the field....

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    The long sobs of autumn's violins wound my heart with a monotonous languor

  5. #35
    Veteran Contributor
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    4,725
    vCash
    5132000
    TWF Contributor! 141 Club Award
    Relatively speaking, not a bad effort for Harris. He only got one thing wrong, although it was the fundamental premise of the article in it's entirety.

    The additional teams were introduced to try and stem the tide of players leaving. Of course removing one team has increased the number going, and not improved the remaining four significantly. And if it didn't work last time, what makes them think it would work if the Rebels were removed? Harris needs to learn to distinguish RA's excuses from their actual reasons.

    Nonetheless, I continue to be concerned that GRR is not intercepting any of these players. There should be a number of teams needing reinforcing next year, and at this rate they will be left with what John West rejects by the time they go into the market. May not affect the playing quality that much frankly, but they need names they can sell.

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  6. #36
    Veteran Sheikh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    4,188
    vCash
    5406000
    Dry July! 141 Club Award
    A misguided part of Harris's article is:
    It would be inconceivable to cut the Waratahs or the Reds. NSW and Queensland are rugby heartland states. Between them they produce the vast majority of professional players in Australia and have the most corporate and public support, at least when they are performing well.
    Why is it inconceivable to cut the Waratahs or Reds? If they are heartland states, then they should be able to stand on their own, without the need for a professional team. They may produce a majority of professional players (I think the figures show that 'vast majority' is incorrect) but those players can then go to a successful professional franchise in another state. It would make the state competition the top level of rugby in their state, with players playing to be noticed by those professional franchises.

    Sounds sort of what the Shute Shield supporters keep saying they want, doesn't it? Give them what they want and cut the Waratahs, who don't seem to be able to win with a side stocked with Wallabies!

    [Note: the above response may contain sh*t-stirring!]

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

  7. #37
    Player
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Far South-West of Sydney
    Posts
    231
    vCash
    5260000
    Quote Originally Posted by sittingbison View Post
    Anything misguided about this article? Is misguided the word I was looking for? Perhaps deluded?
    Frankly, RA should look to merge the Brumbies and Rebels and split the games. Might make their games more of an occasion for both sets of fans. But if they were to go down this path I would want RA to seriously push for a return to the 12 team format by working with the SARU to shift another one of the three SR franchises who are keen on it to go north and an expansion of the SR season to a double round robin format for 22 rounds plus finals.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  8. #38
    Senior Player
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    553
    vCash
    5282000
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyS View Post

    Nonetheless, I continue to be concerned that GRR is not intercepting any of these players. There should be a number of teams needing reinforcing next year, and at this rate they will be left with what John West rejects by the time they go into the market. May not affect the playing quality that much frankly, but they need names they can sell.
    I do also question why GRR are not announcing the signing of some of the players leaving the Tahs, Reds, Brumbies and Rebels for Japan and Europe. In my mind I came up with the following reasons :
    1) The RA are holding a gun to GRR's head, about signing current Australian Super players, if GRR want approval for Western Sydney or Newcastle. So we have to let them go overseas first and then the the GRR can lure them back later from overseas. Crazy, but thats what happened when Twiggy & Hodgo put together the current Force squad.
    2) The Force have a pretty full strong competitive list for GRR at the moment.
    3) The Force are focused on developing young players. Which they are doing well.
    4) Maybe the other GRR sides have already signed up a bunch of stars from Aus, NZ, RSA etc, but have just not announced them for strategic reasons.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  9. #39
    Player
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Far South-West of Sydney
    Posts
    231
    vCash
    5260000
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyS View Post
    Relatively speaking, not a bad effort for Harris. He only got one thing wrong, although it was the fundamental premise of the article in it's entirety.

    The additional teams were introduced to try and stem the tide of players leaving. Of course removing one team has increased the number going, and not improved the remaining four significantly. And if it didn't work last time, what makes them think it would work if the Rebels were removed? Harris needs to learn to distinguish RA's excuses from their actual reasons.

    Nonetheless, I continue to be concerned that GRR is not intercepting any of these players. There should be a number of teams needing reinforcing next year, and at this rate they will be left with what John West rejects by the time they go into the market. May not affect the playing quality that much frankly, but they need names they can sell.
    I posted this above but if RA were to cut the SR teams to three I would like it to coincide with RA and Minderoo looking to work a lot more closely together in order to benefit all parties. You expressed concern over GRR teams missing out on talent. Well, there's a way of ensuring GRR gets at least some if not a sizeable portion of the best U20s talent playing in it's ranks.

    Part of the savings coming from ending the failed Melbourne experiment could be used to contract the best U20s and then 'loan' them to GRR teams. The Force would get first pick of course. This would benefit the Force by 1) Having RA pick up the tab in regards to paying these blokes contracts 2)Provide them with a steady stream of talent to supplement their own structures and 3) Allow them to position themselves a as key player in future Wallabies considerations as a number of these talented young guys could very well stay on after this period ends.

    RA benefits by having the games next gen playing at a higher level and in far more of a professional environment than that of club Rugby.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  10. #40
    Player
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Far South-West of Sydney
    Posts
    231
    vCash
    5260000
    Quote Originally Posted by JSJ View Post
    I do also question why GRR are not announcing the signing of some of the players leaving the Tahs, Reds, Brumbies and Rebels for Japan and Europe. In my mind I came up with the following reasons :
    1) The RA are holding a gun to GRR's head, about signing current Australian Super players, if GRR want approval for Western Sydney or Newcastle. So we have to let them go overseas first and then the the GRR can lure them back later from overseas. Crazy, but thats what happened when Twiggy & Hodgo put together the current Force squad.
    2) The Force have a pretty full strong competitive list for GRR at the moment.
    3) The Force are focused on developing young players. Which they are doing well.
    4) Maybe the other GRR sides have already signed up a bunch of stars from Aus, NZ, RSA etc, but have just not announced them for strategic reasons.
    I think Andy is referencing why these guys aren't being picked up by the likes of South China and the Dragons more so than exclusively the Force.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  11. #41
    Senior Player
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    553
    vCash
    5282000
    Quote Originally Posted by WCRugger View Post
    I think Andy is referencing why these guys aren't being picked up by the likes of South China and the Dragons more so than exclusively the Force.
    Maybe they have already. I cannot believe Twiggy and Hodgo are asleep at the wheel.

    I would hope that Fiji and Samoa focus on bringing back some their stars from overseas.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  12. #42
    Player
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Far South-West of Sydney
    Posts
    231
    vCash
    5260000
    Quote Originally Posted by JSJ View Post
    Maybe they have already. I cannot believe Twiggy and Hodgo are asleep at the wheel.

    I would hope that Fiji and Samoa focus on bringing back some their stars from overseas.
    Not suggesting that they are but you have to take into account a few things like beyond the planned marquee player budget which is centrally funded what the budgets for the likes of the Tigers are really like. Which would severely hinder their ability to attract many of these guys when up against much bigger money from Europe or Japan.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  13. #43
    Immortal GIGS20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Rockingham
    Posts
    18,311
    vCash
    5420000
    The Bronze Star of Faith
    Quote Originally Posted by WCRugger View Post
    I think Andy is referencing why these guys aren't being picked up by the likes of South China and the Dragons more so than exclusively the Force.
    I think that too, but you'd have to wonder why APD and SCT would pay overs for the likes of Samu Kerevi and Adam Coleman, both of whom have been lukewarm in reality but talked up as if they're the saviour of the world (Coleman was on the right track in Perth but has lost all his fire since he started going through the motions with the rest of the Rebels)

    Both SCT and APD don't care that Aussie stars are heading overseas, they'll be paying about the same money for a more recognisable New Zealand or South African name player and be on a much surer bet.

    Minderoo could pick them up in the Marquee pool, but I think it unlikely and the Force (the only team that would consider them because of their Wallabies background) would likely think that Thrush and Iona are better value than Coleman and Kerevi.

    Personally, I'd suggest it's not that surprising that GRR aren't snapping up Wallabies!

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    C'mon the

  14. #44
    Veteran sittingbison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    North Freo
    Posts
    2,766
    vCash
    5242000
    You wouldn't touch the current Wallabies with a barge pole

    And they haven't done the Rebels or Tahrds any favours

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    The long sobs of autumn's violins wound my heart with a monotonous languor

  15. #45
    Apprentice
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Joondalup
    Posts
    18
    vCash
    5004000
    I spoke to one of the players after a game and mentioned Coleman coming back rather than going abroad. The response was not complimentary, something along the lines of, 'nah, fkcu him, we don't want him back here....' The conversation was brought to a halt very quickly......

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Sign the Stronger as Five petition
    By The Man in forum Super Rugby
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 01-04-17, 12:32
  2. A Stronger Force Edged Out by Bulls
    By Darren in forum Front Page News
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 04-03-13, 12:56
  3. Which is stronger - Gravity or AJ??
    By The InnFORCEr in forum Western Force
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 08-11-07, 11:16
  4. Rugby: Bulked-up, faster and stronger
    By Darren in forum International Rugby
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 26-02-07, 08:17
  5. England vow to be stronger in Melbourne
    By NewsBot in forum News Feeds
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 13-06-06, 20:05

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •