Coleman re-signs for the Force

[Ralto]

I have been a Kyle Godwin fan for a long time, many of you know that.

I agree with Pieter, he hasn't done anything of value since they put him at 13. It might not be his fault, I'm not blaming the kid, but if he continues to play the way he is currently it is better for both him and us if we part ways.
The Brumbies will probably put him at 12, coach him appropriately and get him into that Wallabies jersey he deserves.

Consistency - if we were happy for Nick Jooste to go for his development, then for the same reason we should be happy for Kyle to go. Kyle has great talent and the comments are not aimed at him - he needs someone to fully develop him, and it's selfish to keep him here, and not help him improve. While I'm writing this I'm looking at Beauregard's comment - our talent is going backward, and they need to realise they need to keep an eye on their own development.

[travelling_gerry]

Pretty hard to lay that on the current admin. Mitchell and Mulvihill ran that show. IIRC he was about 18, going under the name Ratu Nasiganyavi (?)

I know exactly how that contract ended. He would come back from breaks unfit and miss fitness goals. When his last contract came up for renewal Mitchell challenged him to beat him in a run back to the CEO's office and sign a contract and Mitchell beat him back.

[Sheikh]

If Godwin goes to the Brumbies and blossoms into a star, that's an indictment on the Force. What I'm curious about is how many ex-Force players over the years have gone onto better things after leaving. If there is a significant number, then that would mean that the overall problem isn't just Foley's reign, but something endemic to the franchise itself.

I wouldn't say that there's many. Moono mentioned Mitchell & Ioane, but I wouldn't have said Mitchell was substantially better with the Tahs than with us (although he did get more ball and scored more tries, but on a better team) and Ioane left because he was 'homesick', not because we didn't want him. He was a known star and someone the team wanted to keep.

Maybe Luke Jones and Mitch Inman at the Rebels, but again Jones was a known future star and Inman has been solid, but not massively better. You could possibly argue Cruze Ah-Nua and Paul Alo-Emile, but both left young and haven't excelled outside of the Force; they've improved as a young player would.

So I wouldn't say that there have been many who blossomed after leaving the Force; we tend to get players who have been passed in the pecking order by younger players with more potential.

[boof1050]

Scott Fardy is a pretty good example.

[Sheikh]

Scott Fardy is a pretty good example.

Forgot about him. But he's a bit more like Nadolo, I think. No-one picked him up when he left us (2008) and he spent 3 years in Japan, I think, and not in a top level club before returning to the Brumbies

[Beliefs]

Digby Ioane, Drew Mitchell to name a couple off the top of the head. You could argue Pocock and Giteau but I think we got pretty good service from them. James O'Connors best years were probably at the Force. Some people may not realise that Nemani Nadolo who carves it up for the Crusaders actually played for the Perth Spirit in the Australian Rugby Championship but never got a Force contract.

Classic one is Jake Ball, Paly 2nd rower, got cut from the Force training squad, went back to the UK ( his Dad Dave is still with Paly as far as I know ), and walked straight into the Wales 6 Nations side as a starter, you've got to have some talent to do that, Foley as I've said before couldn't identify talent if it bit him on the arse.

[BeeJay]

If Godwin goes to the Brumbies and blossoms into a star, that's an indictment on the Force. What I'm curious about is how many ex-Force players over the years have gone onto better things after leaving. If there is a significant number, then that would mean that the overall problem isn't just Foley's reign, but something endemic to the franchise itself.

Drew Mitchell, Digby Ioane, David Pocock, Dillyn Leyds, Mitch Inman, Luke Jones, Cruze Ah-Nau, ... shall I stop?

[Beauregard]

Consistency - if we were happy for Nick Jooste to go for his development, then for the same reason we should be happy for Kyle to go. Kyle has great talent and the comments are not aimed at him - he needs someone to fully develop him, and it's selfish to keep him here, and not help him improve. While I'm writing this I'm looking at Beauregard's comment - our talent is going backward, and they need to realise they need to keep an eye on their own development.

Ralto - agreed that the players need to keep an eye on their own development which is why so many have left and flourished. Zack Holmes is another example - doing very well in France but a victim of Foley's my way or the highway attitude. You may comment that the French competition is not as good as super rugby but regardless of opinions, those that play regularly in any top comp should be getting better under quality coaching. DHP is only where he is today thanks to the seasons overseas inspite of Foley, not because of him. Dylan Leyds could not get a crack and show his stuff as he never got the ball under Foley's coaching and look what he is doing now.

All Hail Adam Coleman... leading the stats in line out takes... and what else, one half break last weekend and thats that inspite of one season where he showed that he has more. Tet is a champ but has not delivered much (yes injury has taken its toll) so far since coming back. Is he fully fit or is Foley pushing half recovered players on to the paddock again. Guy Millar, "the next big thing" has not been seen thanks to some one realising that he is lost on the rugby field and is actually rubbish. Peter "granddad" Grant, tries so hard but is 20 years past his use by date and sad to say so it Pek. Love the bloke, love his heart and loyalty but he is now far behind Van Wyk. Taps... hands like feet and feet like hands... not the 13 I was expecting.

All of this smacks of poor planning, recruiting, player management and skills which, IMHO, falls at the feet of Foley. When we loose another bunch of players at the end of this season, keep tabs on them and see how they develop over the next few years. Slag off the fringe guys and the under achievers and wait for the clamour to bring them back when in 2 years time when they have been developed by a competent club.

After being at the ground last week and watching the team capitulate because the ref did this and the ball bounced this way and they have more money, and the ARU don't love us, I am over it. It was a sad indictment of a side that has no confidence in anything including themselves and the coaching staff regardless of what the Coach may say to the press. Sorry team but I will be converting to tiddlywinks .. a far more passionate game.

[GIGS20]

All of this smacks of poor planning, recruiting, player management and skills which, IMHO, falls at the feet of Foley.

Not all of that is necessarily Foley's doing.

Finance has a part to play,
The recruiting staff are not the coaching staff in any professional organisation, Foley will give them a Job Description, perhaps with a list of names, and they get on with finding the best option they can.

Yes he has to answer some hard questions, but he's not the only cause!

[Herbasimplex]

It's a quandary. But I think what is the root cause that is causing the cascade of factors that keep us from being competitive on the field? I think it is the lack of support from the ARU, whether that be lack of direct funds or lack of a level playing field between the franchises. It does irk me that the johnny come lately rebels seemed to be treated much more favourably by the ARU with funding and support. The on-field results at the moment would seem to reflect that.

In any event the ARU cannot continue on its current course - it's broke. can easily see government intervention in the ARU like when soccer australia became FFA.

Then it might be possible to get a centralised contracting system in place like new zealand and a salary cap to create a level playing field for the 5 Australian franchises. seems like the only thing that will make us competitive - and save australian rugby.

[jono]

It's a quandary. But I think what is the root cause that is causing the cascade of factors that keep us from being competitive on the field? I think it is the lack of support from the ARU, whether that be lack of direct funds or lack of a level playing field between the franchises. It does irk me that the johnny come lately rebels seemed to be treated much more favourably by the ARU with funding and support. The on-field results at the moment would seem to reflect that.

In any event the ARU cannot continue on its current course - it's broke. can easily see government intervention in the ARU like when soccer australia became FFA.

Then it might be possible to get a centralised contracting system in place like new zealand and a salary cap to create a level playing field for the 5 Australian franchises. seems like the only thing that will make us competitive - and save australian rugby.

Discontinue the Wallaby contracts, up match fees and then pay day rates / week rates for players while in camp.

[andrewg]

Then it might be possible to get a centralised contracting system in place like new zealand and a salary cap to create a level playing field for the 5 Australian franchises. seems like the only thing that will make us competitive - and save australian rugby.

There is already a salary cap in place for the 5 Franchises.

It's $4.5 Million per year + $0.5 Million from sponsorship (available for distribution).

The problem is the Wallaby Top-UP/Contract system and the 'special' deals for 'special' players. (e.g. Folau, Cooper, Hunt etc).

There are 25-30 SR/Wallabies who only have a single contract - An ARU contract.
The ARU determine the worth of a player and agree how much of this is covered by the club.
The remainder comes from elsewhere - independent of the franchise.
Folau costs the Waratahs only $150k as all the rest comes from elsewhere.
In addition to this Wallabies get match payments - now only about $10k per match (previously $14k/match).

Last year a player such as Palu was still getting a ~$300k top-up from the ARU despite the fact that he couldn't stay on the park.
The Waratahs have the same salary cap ($4.5M + $0.5M) plus get >$2 Million in player remuneration from the ARU top-up system.
(This was confirmed by Wayne Smith in his Australian article today).

The only player getting a Wallaby Top-Up for the WF is Ben McCalman (and I understand that it's MUCH less than what was getting paid to Palu.

The only way to get some level of parity into the system is a player DRAFT but Queensland and NSW (and probably the ACT) don't want this to happen as they are currently the major kindergartens of Australian Rugby. They lose the benefit of their hard work. (or so it's perceived).

The WF has only a single player currently getting a ARU Top-Up, Ben McCalman, and I understand that it is MUCH less than what was paid to Palu.

The only way to fix the issue is via a DRAFT system which is opposed by Queensland and NSW (and possibly the ACT) as they are the major kindergartens of Australian Rugby.

Yes the Rebels have had far more concessions than the WF. I suggest that with greater population they are considered a better target for growing rugby. Look at the numbers that turn up for Test matches in Melbourne.

I hope that Wayne Smith's article get the talk happening out in the open and at the right level.

[The InnFORCEr]

I hope that Wayne Smith's article get the talk happening out in the open and at the right level.

You mean on Rugby 360

[andrewg]

Discontinue the Wallaby contracts, up match fees and then pay day rates / week rates for players while in camp.

Totally agree but I'm unsure if this structure would stop the rapid migration of our good players to Europe.

You mean on Rugby 360

Please ANYWHERE but there!