Anglo-French clubs leave Heineken Cup

[beige]

Peter Boyle, an IRFU representative on the ERC management board, has ruled out the possibility that Leinster, Munster, Ulster or Connacht - who are largely funded but the IRFU - will join the new competition.

"The RFU and French Rugby Federation have already confirmed that there will be no new company other than ERC to run European competitions," Boyle told the Independent on Sunday.

"It is unequivocal that the negotiation of TV and other rights is central and it's done by ERC. The IRFU are bound into ERC and that restricts completely the movement of Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Connacht."

Boyle also claims that the IRFU would be willing to consider reducing the number of teams qualifying via the Pro12 and thus reducing the Heineken Cup from 24 teams to 20, as per the wishes of the English and French clubs.

Full article: http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,2...937889,00.html

[chibi]

Wow, 12 teams from England and France, 10 teams from all four other countries combined, and the IRFU is willing to reduce their numbers? Are they generous or stupid? Or are they just angling to shaft the Italians?

No spots are allocated to the Pro 12, they are allocated to nations. If anything, seeing both nations win grand slams in recent years and Irish teams winning 5 of the last 8 European Cups, maybe 3 spots each is a bit meagre for Ireland and Wales, and they deserve more, not less?

[beige]

I think the English and French clubs have a reasonable argument about team numbers even if I don't agree with the way they're going about things.

[RugbyRef]

Thats because they have a proper domestic league, where as the celtic nations don't, hence why they joined together.
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[beige]

Which is now the equivalent of their domestic league. So I can understand how the English and French clubs would be annoyed that pretty much the entire league also gets to play in Europe.

[RugbyRef]

Well it's not, is Super Rugby Australia's domestic league? not really.

[Scozzie]

Wow, 12 teams from England and France, 10 teams from all four other countries combined, and the IRFU is willing to reduce their numbers? Are they generous or stupid? Or are they just angling to shaft the Italians?

No spots are allocated to the Pro 12, they are allocated to nations. If anything, seeing both nations win grand slams in recent years and Irish teams winning 5 of the last 8 European Cups, maybe 3 spots each is a bit meagre for Ireland and Wales, and they deserve more, not less?

This shows how strong the Pro 12 competition is, and justifies a better representation from the four competing countries - rather than the other two, who just seem to want a bigger slice of the pie to swell their pockets even more.....!

[jargan83]

Well it's not, is Super Rugby Australia's domestic league? not really.

I fail to see an argument why Super Rugby would not be considered Australia's domestic competition given these days half of the fixture is "local derbies"

[GIGS20]

Surely that would have to be the same in all member countries, How do you think the Saffers would react to being told the Currie Cup isn't their national domestic competition?

[jargan83]

Surely that would have to be the same in all member countries, How do you think the Saffers would react to being told the Currie Cup isn't their national domestic competition?

They would probably shit a chicken

But NZ and SA have national competitons below Super Rugby where Australia has no national comp below Super Rugby so at the moment you would have to say Super Rugby is as close to one as we've got for the moment.

Does Sydney/Brisbane club Rugby count?

[Alison]

I'd agree with RugbyRef - it can't really be called a domestic competition if SA and NZ are part of it. Unless you're just looking at the Australian conference bit?

[beige]

Bear in mind that it is the clubs that are pushing the breakaway, not the unions (who are siding with ERC). With that in mind it is understandable why they'd be annoyed that half, or more than half, of them miss out on the European honeypot each year while every team in Pro 12 bar one gets a piece of the action.

[AndyS]

As I understand it, the Unions have not actually made their call yet. More importantly, neither has the IRB. It is an interesting situation - the home nations have been long accused of using their over-representation on the IRB council to block change. But even if the English and French unions chose to back the clubs (which I'm sceptical of), they only have four votes vs seven for the Celtic/Italian nations.

[chibi]

I think there is a claim from the Anglo-French clubs, that the Heineken Cup is made up of allocations from the English Premiership (6), French Top 14 (6) and the Pro 12 (10). And that 10 over 6 is not fair. It's a falsified claim, however. The allocations were made to the countries, not the leagues. As a matter of fact, the Pro 12 or it's Celtic League predecessor didn't even exist when the European Cup began.

If looked at correctly, its:
England (6)
France (6)
Wales - back-to-back grand slam winners (3)
Ireland - recent grand slam winners, winners of 5 out of the last 8 European Cups (3)
Scotland (2)
Italy (2)

That the Italian and Celtic sides decided to play together in another secondary multi-national competition later on, the Pro 12, is beside the point.

One wonders if Wales had received an allocation greater than now, if we would still see the great Welsh clubs in existence at the highest level. It was monetary advantage from larger populations and pay-TV money which fuelled the French and English clubs, it's a shame that truly great names like Neath, Swansea, Bridgend, Pontypridd are now unknown at the highest level. There's no Scottish Borders now either.

So the question I'm asking is, what do these clubs actually want? Obviously money. But beyond that, an Anglo-French league with invitations to bigger Celtic teams? Does that mean a European Super League, under their control? I can't see how this is good for the game, or how it won't eventually be a stagnant, ruinous mess. What's the point of a competition like that?

And can anything good come of these rich clubs totally owning their domestic and European competitions? What happens when players need to be released for test matches, and there's no jurisdiction?

[beige]

As I understand it, the Unions have not actually made their call yet. More importantly, neither has the IRB. It is an interesting situation - the home nations have been long accused of using their over-representation on the IRB council to block change. But even if the English and French unions chose to back the clubs (which I'm sceptical of), they only have four votes vs seven for the Celtic/Italian nations.

IRB is against it: http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,2...939514,00.html

FFR is against it: http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,2...937212,00.html

I thought I read that the RFU was against it too but it looks like I was mistaken.