Queensland coach Phil Mooney says extra Australian team will test depth

[travelling_gerry]

By Jim Morton
May 15, 2009 Queensland Reds coach Phil Mooney has warned Australian rugby doesn't have the playing stocks to house a fifth franchise in a proposed expanded Super 15 from 2011.

After many months of bickering and disagreement, leading officials from Australia, New Zealand and South Africa agreed on a Super rugby compromise in crisis talks in Dublin.

While governing body SANZAR were keeping the finer details of their expansion plans secret, the early indications were Australia would be the base for the new 15th team.

If that's the case, Melbourne - edged out by Perth's Western Force for a Super 14 berth in 2006 - stands as the overwhelming favourite for the licence.

But Mooney, whose Reds have finished in the bottom three of the ladder for the past six seasons, feared a fifth Australian team would be cannon-fodder and could also undermine the four existing teams.

Of the Australian teams only New South Wales Waratahs (twice) have made the finals since the competition was expanded to a Super 14 and none sit in the top four going into final round.

"I just can't see where a fifth Australian team are going to get the players from," Mooney said.

"If you take all young guys, which we have done, you're going to take a few hits.

"If you pick all the old guys I would argue that Super 14 has probably moved on from them.

"We're talking about starting a new team and if the Australian teams were coming one, two, three, four I'd say yep but as we speak not one of them are in the four."

While a supporter of expansion, Mooney would prefer to see a combined Pacific Islander team admitted which could either be based in Australia or NZ.

"Samoa, Fiji, Tonga have been punching above their weight for a long time," he said. "I think we've got a responsibility to help develop the game there."

Victorian Rugby Union president Gary Gray denied a Melbourne side would struggle for talent and would be competitive with a squad which would contain between 12-15 Islander players.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,...002381,00.html
AAP

[travelling_gerry]

"Victorian Rugby Union president Gary Gray denied a Melbourne side would struggle for talent and would be competitive with a squad which would contain between 12-15 Islander players."

I reckon that tells us what the deal is..........

[jargan83]

Didn't the Force test the depth of Australian Rugby at one stage?
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[travelling_gerry]

As did the Brumbies once.

[WF2006]

Couldn't agree with Mooney more.....seriously think a 5th Australian franchise would weaken all. Might still have a benefit for the Wallabies by providing more depth where its currently lacking, but would damage Oz teams in the S15. I think this might also lead to further relaxing of the "foreign" player policies which I also would not think would be the best.

"Victorian Rugby Union president Gary Gray denied a Melbourne side would struggle for talent and would be competitive with a squad which would contain between 12-15 Islander players."

I reckon that tells us what the deal is..........

Possibly would help, but where would the other 15-18 come from??

[beige]

I'm happy with it. I am a little curious what the "compromise" was between the 3 SANZAR partners though...

[Cookie]

I think it will only improve the depth of oz rugby,especially if numbers are gonna be trimmed down to 28 players in some states.

Then hopefully we will see guys like scott daruda,dhp,kbomb,beef etc getting a chance to play super rugby.

[WF2006]

Then hopefully we will see guys like scott daruda,dhp,kbomb,beef etc getting a chance to play super rugby.

but if more guys get lots of opportunities to play super rugby in diluted sides that lose frequently, is this really good for Australian rugby??

[Working Class]

There will be the intial painful period. But give it a few years and the benefit will become more evident. Look at the force. Many guys who would struggle to get into the starting side for the original 3 provinces are now pushing for Test spots. Not because of lack of talent and ability but because of incumbents and lack of openings.

[Cookie]

The only way that these guys will progress is with game time,look at pek and cummo for example this season,they have improved with each game.There is no substitute for game time.

Look at the highlanders this year a bunch of no names and no stars still competing strongly at this level and with the experience those guys are getting will only strengthen them for next year.

We have no ARC or APC so we need to get more players competing at this level.

[tic]

Mooney is right. If this insane view prevails (motivated by greed, nothing more), the game is as good as dead in Australia.

Look at how crowds in Australia are struuggling now. Why? Because the quality of our teams is just not there.

Tonight I have watched the Broncos v. Titans in front of 43000 at Suncorp, meanwhile Kogorah was sold out for the Dragons v. Bulldogs. Of course the AFL has no problems with their gates. Heck even A-League crowds look good compared to Super 14 gates.

So tell me what am I missing? By weakening an already weak product, who will want to see live rugby. Plus people won't tune in to pay TV.

This plan is just a Hail Mary pass - its going to end in tears.

[GIGS20]

I would think the bleating would come from the new boy on the block (Force) but Queensland is right up there.

tic, do you think, after the savaging WA has had around the contract table this year that Queensland will still be the team raped in year one?

I guess it's possible, but in reality the only players who will move to Melbourne will be those who are disgruntled, either by extended time with no result (whatever that means to them) or by limited game time.....I really don't think there are too many of them in Queensland any more, Very few really senior players, lots of young guys getting a go and playing some exciting rugby.

Brumbies have bought big, and will be worrying at the start of the S15, since experience has proven to me that buying a team doesn't necessarily bring either strength OR continuity and the Tahs are getting some results, but with a brand of rugby that will destroy their backline through sheer boredom. Force have already been hammered, and I think the only thing that will cause an exodus in the future would be consistently disappointing performances. I guess what I'm thinking is, there will be a fair bit of player movement, but more in the fringes this time than last...a couple of defections more than likely from the Greater NSW region and a few years of pain, but that's essentially what happened in 2006 and we're in a far stronger position now than then.

Short term pain, sure, but longer term gain given that we don't have an ARC!

[tic]

My concern is not just the Reds (although I have a vested interest there), but for the Force, the Brumbies and even......gulp...the Tahs (there, I said it).

Rugby has a tough competition base with NRL and AFL - and whilst there are hard core rugby supporters, the code must pull interest from those other codes to thrive.

If the product is weak, it will wither on the vine and die.

The answer is to re-instate some form of ARC - that is the only answer if you want to hold the interest of the emerging talent. But John O'neil is only interested in snake oil and get rich quick schemes.

I've got a great ponzi scheme he might be interested in putting ARU money into.

[GIGS20]

I do hear ya mate, but I remember the same arguments floating around in 2004/5 and it doesn't seem to have turned out too badly....yeah, we've not completed the growth phase yet, but the Reds are on the up, 'Tahs are a shot of the finals and three of the four were in with a shot with two weeks to go....hardly end of days stuff.

Sure there's a lot of rebuilding to do, but let's face it, the Force have a young team of fire pissers, the Reds have a young team of Fire pissers, the Tahs have a tight five that's actually pretty good once you kick Donut and Trestle off the park and the Brumbies have just bought temselves a classy backline thanks to the Wallaby factory.....

Maybe I'm a glass half full kind of guy, (guess that helps when you're a force fan) but I think we'll pull through!

Maybe it's just that I've never lived in Brisbane and haven't watched every other code overtake my team. Even though the Force have crap all market share, there's still massive support and loyalty over here....that's what gives me confidence that slinging a 5th team in isn't going to kill the sport entirely.

[Scotty]

I would like to see more Aussie teams challenging (not mathematically threatening) for finals spots before we even think about another team.