Super 14 2009 Refereeing Quality?

[unipirate]

I know this is a touchy subject for most people, and I am not sure I should be bringing this up or not, but I think it does need to be said by someone.

It is only the second round of the new season and I am not sure if it is just me but I have seen some terrible calls in quite a few games.

Not just infringements like the defense and offense diving over the ball a lot, but also not calling knock ons, not listening to their touch judges, not watching defenders entering from the side of the ruck and calling hands in the ruck when a player steps over a tackled player and picks the ball up when the only other opposition is lying on the ground after diving over!

I have a feeling that there needs to be a review by someone into these problems! A missed call can change the game in a second! Again I don't want to be bashing but I don't think the quality is there!

[welshrugbyfan]

I don't agree with the whole non neutral referee business. The ref from the same country as is playing always goes harder on the country where he was born. I think it's his way of saying well you can't critisice me for favouring my home team country.

It has been noticable in this season already.

[unipirate]

yeah I understand your point but that aside the quality of the men in charge just hasn't been on par in my opinion. Maybe they warm up like the players do and get better as the season goes?

[slomo]

I don't agree with the whole non neutral referee business. The ref from the same country as is playing always goes harder on the country where he was born. I think it's his way of saying well you can't critisice me for favouring my home team country.

It has been noticable in this season already.

wrf, i also thought along similar lines...

[unipirate]

anyone know why that decision was made?

[brokendown gunfighter]

because there is a lack of quality referees

[chiselhead]

A few bad calls.........?
A few howlers..........?
Nothing new under the sun. 50% go against you and they're the only ones you remember. That's just how it is and how it always will be

[Ecky]

yeah I understand your point but that aside the quality of the men in charge just hasn't been on par in my opinion. Maybe they warm up like the players do and get better as the season goes?

Precisely! They have no games to ref until the pre-season stuff.

Just like us lot in the local comp - your first hit-out as players will (obviously) be our first hit-out as refs.

How's this for a deal: You guys criticise the player errors (like knocking the ball on,or passing it forward, or not staying on their feet, or kicking the ball aimlessly, or missing a tackle, etc etc etc) as much as critcising the ref errors and then the playing field is a bit more even.

Just a thought.......

[brokendown gunfighter]

not staying on your feet in rucks & mauls etc is almost a physical impossibility at times,this rule needs to be looked at

[unipirate]

Yes that is true that rule does need to be looked at for sure, since if you go into the ruck and are on your feet but get taken off by the opposition, how do you make a decision or should you make a decision there? I don't believe so! If you dive over, then yes that is not staying on your feet! Some discretion should be made here I agree!

Now on to being more of a critic of the players efforts and not the refs. As far as I can see the players get more than enough criticism from commentator/press/ journalism, their coaches (constructive) and the public. I don't see this for the refs, do they have coaches I am not sure? Who do they get constructive feedback from to improve their level of calling. What piece of press/journalism shows the stats of the referee; what he mistakes he made and what calls he got right?

I know it isn't fair on supporters berating the ref but thats not what I am trying to do. I just don't think the quality is there in the competition yet, maybe it will get better maybe it wont only time will tell I guess.

[SNOB]

Uni I whole heartedly agree about the inconsistencies and do think there needs to be some serious discussion and law changes about people going of there feet as Gunfighter mentions.
It does seem that the refs job has got a lot harder with the way the ELVs are being implemented with on lot down here and a another lot up north. Last week in 1 of the 6 nations game you had an SA ref who the next week could be reffing a S14 game! So not easy for them.
Some of the games have become bloody boring with refs blowing the whistle every 5 seconds and scrums being reset, some refs do turn a blind eye to the odd misdemeanor for the sake of fast flowing game and it doesn't seem to hurt anyone.
I think we should have a survey each week voting on what was the best game of the week (for entertainment value) and see if there is one ref that seems to keep the came going better than the others!

[Ecky]

Yes that is true that rule does need to be looked at for sure, since if you go into the ruck and are on your feet but get taken off by the opposition, how do you make a decision or should you make a decision there? I don't believe so! If you dive over, then yes that is not staying on your feet! Some discretion should be made here I agree!

It;s a law, not a rule. It is not a new law under the ELVs. The whole purpose of the law is to stop players entering the ruck and preventing a contest by killing the ball. Players who enter to clean out must do so with the intention of staying on their feet but still driving over the opposition. (Think of a plane taking off, rather than a plane landing) "But wait Sir", I hear you say, "that's impossible according to the laws of physics!" But snot. All depends on where you plant your feet for the initial contact. Get 'em close, knees bent, arms down, grab the player you want to clean out and straighten them there legs, driving through.

Now on to being more of a critic of the players efforts and not the refs. As far as I can see the players get more than enough criticism from commentator/press/ journalism, their coaches (constructive) and the public. I don't see this for the refs, do they have coaches I am not sure? Who do they get constructive feedback from to improve their level of calling. What piece of press/journalism shows the stats of the referee; what he mistakes he made and what calls he got right?

I know it isn't fair on supporters berating the ref but thats not what I am trying to do. I just don't think the quality is there in the competition yet, maybe it will get better maybe it wont only time will tell I guess.

OK: For example, for Round 2 of the S14, the following appointment were made by SANZAR/IRB in relation to the officials:

Hurricanes vs Highlanders in Wellington
Referee: Vinny Munro (New Zealand)
Touch judges: Garrett Williamson (New Zealand), Ben Skeen (New Zealand)
Television match official: Keith Brown (New Zealand)
Assessor: Glenn Wahlstrom

Waratahs vs Chiefs in Sydney
Referee: Stuart Dickinson (Australia)
Touch judges: Ian Smith (Australia), Damien Mitchelmore (Australia)
Television match official: George Ayoub (Australia)
Assessor: Wayne Erickson

Western Force vs Cheetahs in Perth
Referee: James Leckie (Australia)
Touch judges: Paul Marks (Australia), Julian Pritchard (Australia)
Television match official: Geoff Acton (Australia)
Assessor: Arrie Schoonwinkel

Stormers vs Reds at Newlands
Referee: Chris Pollock (New Zealand)
Touch judges: Craig Joubert (South Africa), Josh Noonan (New Zealand)
Television match official: Michael Cupido (South Africa)
Assessor: Greg Cooper

Brumbies vs Crusaders in Canberra
Referee: Bryce Lawrence (New Zealand)
Touch judges: Ian Smith (Australia), Brett Bowden (Australia)
Television match official: Steve Leszczynski (Australia)
Assessor: Wayne Erickson

Bulls vs Blues in Pretoria
Referee: Mark Lawrence (South Africa)
Touch judges: Willie Roos (South Africa), Stuart Berry (South Africa)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)
Assessor: Greg Cooper

Sharks vs Lions in Durban
Referee: Jonathan Kaplan (South Africa)
Touch judges: Phillip Bosch (South Africa), Christie Du Preez (South Africa)
Television match official: Johann Meuwesen (South Africa)
Assessor: Arrie Schoonwinkel

Every single game has an assessor. This person assesses the performance of the match officials - referee, the two assistants AND the TMO. Each official receives a score for their performance. They lose marks for decisions they either (a) got wrong, or (b) should have made but didn't.

This is an assessment, rather than a coaching report, and defines in detail (down to the time in the game the incident occurred) what the outcome was. While it is not a coaching report, most IRB/SANZAR panel referees have their own coach and the assessment can be used (sorry, is probably used) by the ref and their coach to identify the cause of the lost marks. In this way they can identify how to not lose those marks next time and therefore get a better score.

As far I know, every representative match (including 6N and Heineken Cup & Magners League, etc) has a referee assessor, or performance evaluator. In the domestic stuff, we have a system whereby there is a referee coach in the "home & away" fixtures, up until the last 3 (approx) rounds, where the top 20 or so refs are identified and they will each have a performance appraisal, which us used to rank them (us) for the finals appointments.

[Em-Forcer]

I'd imagine refs get feedback after the game from their governing body? Ecky, can you confirm? (erm, yup, see above - call him psychic!)

I'd have to check with Harry which match it was, but last week we watched one where the ref seemed pretty good, he even let some decent scrums occur (I think many of them call scrum infringements far too fast - though when the front lines go straight down, there's nothing much they can do then!).
But he generally let play flow, kept communicating with the players and did so clearly and concisely, and didn't seem to make too many howlers.
More of that, please!

[AndyS]

More than anything, the change is a cost cutting measure. But on the whole, I don't really feel there has been much difference in standard. There have been some fairly ordinary decisions, but there always are, they generally even up and they are far outweighed by the good decisions.

That said, there does seem to be a lot of emphasis on going off feet and it seems to be focused on the attacking team. I've seen several instances where there have been people diving into the breakdown from the defensive side (and in some instances, I do mean side!), but the penalty is against the one bloke from the attacking side even if no-one is competing for the ball. I have no problem with the interpretation, but it does seem a bit unbalanced.

Personally, I have greater issue with the clean-out of players well off the ball. The Kiwi sides in particular seem to do it a lot, attacking unbound players and carrying them well out of play. It is obstruction, pure and simple.