Argentina for the Southern Nations Series

[Sagerian]

You only have to look at last year, Aus/NZ/SA playing Samoa/Fiji/Tonga?. Massive scores were racked up in each.

[Mambo No. 5]

All in all, the more games the wallabies play each year in australia means the more chance of Perth hosting more tests each year. So the more the merrier really as it is all about seeing the wallabies playing live in Perth for us folks over here in the west

[Burgs]

I suggested over on Rugby Heretic once to great positive interest (can't remember if I floated it here or not?) that if the distance across to Argentina is a sticking point for SANZAR then perhaps los Pumas could use Perth as their "Home Ground" for a couple of years as a trial.
They were prepared to move to Europe for the 6N season, so why not the same concept to enable them to join the Southern Nations?
Share your thoughts on that concept, would you attend an Pumas v All Blacks or Pumas v Springboks match at Subiaco or Members Equity?
You would assume that the Wallabies v Pumas fixture would be the Perth annual match regardless of who was "at home"?
Perhaps with an undertaking for the Wallabies to play a Winter Test each year against an inbound NH team as well it might swing us in favour of doing it?
That's potentially four Perth Tests and up to five International teams per year, pretty attractive I would think?

[.X.]

Starting to get off subject a little (but that is pretty usual for us!) but I would think that there is also an argument of forming a Comp around Samoa, Fiji, USA, Canada, Japan & Tonga.
This would see the current 10th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 18th and 20th IRB ranked nations pooled together and I imagine would be a very competitive competition.
With the inclusion of Argentina the "Southern Nations" would have the current 1st, 2nd, 5th & 9th nations and the Six Nations would consist of the current 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th & 12th nations.
The only countries then outside of a top level comp out of the current top 20 would be Romania 15th, Uruguay 16th, Portugal 17th and Georgia 19th but if you ensured they all played the top nations in the SH Winter Tests they would get as much big game exposure as everyone else.
Food for thought anyway!

A very good point Burgs. I would love to see Australia "A", NZ "A" and SA "A" play these times. the big reason why these lowly ranked teams are lowly ranked is a lack of exposure. Imagine how good the RWC would be if all of these nations listed by Burgs were in a serious annual competition.

[Flat-top]

Think the idea of Pumas in 6N's relied on them setting up camp in Europe, probably Spain and then using only European based players. Now while that sounds great for them it raises the same old chestnut in the NH about too many games and player burnout.

I don't have any info on the SANZAR setup but in England the biggest issue remains release of players for international games. The players are employed and paid by each of the 12 GP teams, already there is great concern about the affect on teams during the 6N's and Autumn Internationals. For example as a Bath season ticket holder I want to see the best Bath team take to the pitch every week, I am Irish so would support the CEO of the club if he refused to release 6 of "our" pack ecah 6N's weekend. I wonder if this would become more of an issue in the SH if Pumas or any other team were added to the fixture list.

[.X.]

All the IRB has to do is release a statement that says a player picked for his home country WILL be released to play for his Country.

end of story. Do not pass go, do not collect $200

[Burgs]

The Southern Hemisphere players are able to make a living between Super 14 and Tri Nations so, in theory, it is really more about establishing a professional season for the Argentinians and Pacific Islanders prior to the proposed "Southern Nations Comp" so that they can tell the European clubs to go bash it up their bugle. I know the arguments but I just really can't comprehend the justification from the European Clubs in not releasing players? Surely a player that goes away to play at a higher standard comes back to you more experienced and skilled? Surely an improved Argentina and Pacific Islands means greater player depth to pillage in those places to support the European Clubs?
I was amazed to tally up that there was 95 Southern Hemisphere players in the English Premier Clubs in '04 and a further 49 in Celtic League Clubs.
That is quite staggering really.
It is the equivelent of four and a third full Super 14 Squads!
For Australia there was a total of 27 players in either comp.
There were 26 from the Pacific Islands with 18 coming from Samoa alone.
For Argentina there were only four however that is without looking at the French and Italian Club scenes!
I would suggest to the IRB and SANZAR, make the changes, expand the competitions and then you will slowly choke the European Clubs to a point of becoming more equitable between allowing players to play for their countries if they want them to sign with their clubs.
The players are being born and developed to play in an expanded Southern Hemisphere Rugby environment, it will be just a matter of getting the European Clubs hooks out of these type of players and allowing them to earn a respectable living closer to home.

[Flat-top]

But the IRB does not pay the players wages, the clubs or more importantly we supporters do. Like I say I don't appreciate paying a shedload of money for my club ticket only to see the best players sod off and play for England leaving me to watch a second string team.

Don't get me wrong, i understand why the players would want this, and I understand what the International teams get out of the deal but the clubs and supporters get shafted each time. More often than not the players return injured or so knackered they have to be rested.

To give the authorities the power you suggest would only be feasible if they introduced central contracts and the teams hosted the international players without having to pay wages.

[Flat-top]

Sorry Burgs I posted at same time as your last one.

I stand by my opinion that players return in a worse state than they leave not better.

The reason for the high number of "foreign" imports to the GP is because of this very reason. Bath for example have about 5 PI's on their books to cover for the England internationals!

[Burgs]

Yep, understand your points F-T.
My point on "returning" wasn't for that week, it was as a player for the seasons and career ahead.
Rep rugby always improves the standard and professionalism (til they visit Cape Town anyway!) of a player. I was also refering as much to the imports as the locals.
My point I guess would be, why can't the European Clubs develop their own players to cover for the Internationals?
There is only 30 odd in a squad, I would have thought that a country with the playing depth of England (ie the biggest going around) could have found thirty odd players going around to cover those positions?
I appreciate your sentiment on value for money re your season ticket however, to me, that is a side issue that shouldn't determine the future of the sport. More of a case of work out the system then charge for it than the current charge big bucks and then work out how to keep up the standard!
For as long as I can recall this issue has been in the media, when did it begin, right back in '95 I would assume?

[MysticBalls]

Great thread guys. Argentina yes to play in TriNations with RSA,AUst,NZ. I've met Chilean students who fly via Buenos Aires to Auckland (over South Pole) to reach Australia. Its apparently quicker than flying across the globe latitudinally. So travel isn't really an issue. RSA fly 12 hours (crow flying) to reach NZ as it is (by time zones). It must be less than that to fly Cape Town to Buenos Aires! (Research answer?)

Uruguay at no. 19 deserves a game whilst a team is over there on tour- stacked with reserves. And Chile plays as well. Sound like a grand tour already.

USA and Canada in the Pacific 5 Nations is positive. Only question mark is the different season/preparation for a Nth Hem team.

[Burgs]

On the back of Argentina's last couple of performances, anyone have any new thoughts on the Pumas being included into an expanded Tri Nations?

[frontrow]

I don`t believe it will add anything to the current tournament myself, and tend to agree with flat top on the issue of players returning injured or exhausted after rigourous internationals. The problem with argentina is they have been known to play a more rough( shall we say) version of rugby, even more so than South Africa, and this may lead to more injuries, or incidents per game.
Now, with that said, why not host a few more one offs, or a double header every few years, to help them to improve themselves on the international scene.This would be more beneficial i believe than taking the tri nations apart by expanding it, and, another thing, there is no real "in your face" rivalry with Argentina, as opposed to the Kiwis or Springboks.
Anyhow, If it ain`t broke, don`t fix it.....8)

[Burgs]

Would an answer be frontrow, to have los Pumas feature in the Bundy Series each year and perhaps play all three 3N once before the 3N begins with (in the case of this year as they have the bye first week) the Springboks playing them in the last of the three fixtures this weekend?
Should we be bothering with out of season tours by the likes of England this year and focusing on more fixtures for Southern Hemisphere development?
I have my opinions on it but would like to hear others' view points too.

[frontrow]

Actually Burgs, i quite like the concept you have put forward.. Although, improving the standards in Southern Hemisphere is critical for rugbys` development, we still need to mix it with the northern hemisphere so we can compare styles of play and pack strength etc...So we should keep regular appearances from north of the equator a regular occurance, so we dont lose anything from our current knowledge of how they are performing. Using six nations for comparison doesn`t highlight anything to us as no one up north compares with the souths style of play.
This said, your idea regarding los Pumas would be an excellent way to develop Southern hemisphere rugby, and maybe add a bit of a challenge to our forwards as Argentina has a great engine room ( i`m still a big fan of Noriega). Prior to TN would be a good barometer of upcoming performances, considering how they are currently travelling