Perth's New Super Stadium

[The EnForcer]

Nothing conceptual has started.

But it would be likely to be something that revolves seats out so that the sidelines are closer to the action for League and Union.

It remains to be seen whether or not they go for Telstra Stadium style retractable seating or Telstra Dome style retractable seating (which never gets used)

I've just changed my mind with regards to my preference to stadium options available to The Western Force. The all purpose stadium will not satisfy our needs and I believe the MES expansion option is best for The Western Force.

I’ve had a look at a few different designs for retractable seating stadiums and the thing that jumps out at me is the complexity of design and the cumbersome and costly operation. The capital expenditure of an "ideal" retractable seating stadium, i.e. one which satisfies the majority of each sports requirement, will be astronomical. Therefore, I suggest the stadium, if it goes ahead as currently perceived, will be a compromise that will not satisfy rectangular pitch fans. I.E. Us.

We want a stadium which will give all the supporters suitable viewing seats and a dedicated rectangular stadium has got to be the way to go. With the potential for the Glory to get back on track, following the success in the World Cup, the joint supporter base of the Western Force and the Glory will be significant.

So, the Western Force needs to get together with the Glory and use the post world cup wave of optimism to persuade the government to expedite the building of the MES expansion. This will give the Glory further credibility and hopefully increase their fan base, while satisfying the immediate and short term needs of the Western Force.

This being said, the stadium needs to be designed with a view to effective future expansion rather than some of the add-on designs I have seen in the past. This means some wise additional investment now which will reduce future expansion costs and make for a better stadium and increase its life. Accountants and governments don't generally like that but it is the only way forward to effectively satisfy our sports mid to long term needs.

It's the WA government’s lack of vision and planning with regards to sport that has landed us in this situation. Is it not about time they woke up and saw what the rest of the world is doing to support sporting development? Super 14 teams are on the world stage, should we not have the government support to reflect that?

It’s our city, it’s our money and it’s our sport, without us none survive.

[Egan]

There is a hiatus on any development of Members Equity until the Major Stadia Taskforce has finished its report...nothing will be started in the next 12 months

I doubt the Glory will support a 32,000 capacity development...but 25,000 they will be more then happy with.

If you want a 32,000 seat stadium, the best thing is to get as many people you can to go to the games.

It took Perth Glory 8 years of solid crowds before the State Government was willing to spend $6 million on a rectangular based stadium.

The other $6 million came from the Town of Vincent in the last MES redevelopment.

Anyways another article on the MES redevelopment, more for Perth Glory fans should be up soon.

[Mambo No. 5]

Anyways another article on the MES redevelopment, more for Perth Glory fans should be up soon.

Egan - our man on the inside - keep us informed....

I think that 25000 at MES would easily be the best and fastest option for the Force. The quicker they get out of Subi the better.....

The longer that they stay at Subi the quicker the crowd numbers will drop. We have membership tickets in the silver section on the lower level. For the Ireland Test we chose to be further around at the end of the ground just to get the height we need to see the whole pitch.

We were in the 2nd Tier of the Eastern Stand and they were much better seats than the side lower level.....

WESTERN FORCE - get out of subi as fast as you can. Don't worry about the mega stadium.....

[Burgs]

The longer that they stay at Subi the quicker the crowd numbers will drop.

That's not entirely true Mambo, as soon as they move to ME crowd numbrs will drop from av 28,000 to 22,000 without options until it is finished!
So with the natural population/membership increase from year one through to year (say) 5, who of us is prepared to make way for the new members?

[LarryNJ]

Does the government pay for the total cost of the stadium or is the cost shared with the ownership of the team? Did the WF make a profit in their first year?

[Egan]

Larry the funding for a stadium is done entirely by a State Government...Western Force did not make a profit last year due to start up costs allegedly, they did get a $5 million grant from the State Government to help with start up costs in the last budget.

Burgs what I disagree with you, is that 28,000 average is not sustainable and the natural attrition of the Force will eventually decrease this average as the club gets older and the hype disappears ala Perth Glory.

1 - The average was increased by the Force's first ever game and the last game against the Crusaders.

2 - The hype factor will eventually be less.

3 - I have been gradually finding it a little hard to cope with Force's request, I think they are being a touch to greedy...In the end there are plans for 32,000...but the State Government seems to have made it quite clear they will not redevelop to 32,000.

But whether or not the Force do say yay or nay over the stadium decision...I am pretty sure that the stadium timeframe for when it is to be built is certainly over 12 months away.

[Egan]

http://www.austadiums.com/news/news.php?id=244

This is certainly a Perth Glory article that is not really of concern for the Western Force...but it is the reason why Perth Glory would not exactly be enthralled with the capacity increasing to 32,000.

[Happy]

what is the "shed" you're referring to ?? Chris ? I've never been to M.E

[Darren]

it's bascially a big shed behind one of the goals, where the hooligans hang out. Check the Google Map Landmarks - just added it in

[Burgs]

What you seem quite happy to overlook Egan is that there is a massive weekly increase arriving to live in Perth on the back of the mineral boom and other better opportunities.
These people are coming from NSW, Qld, South Africa, New Zealand, and Zimbabwe and still they come from the traditional UK countries. These are all rugby playing origins and the majority of arrivals are all rugby followers.
Membership of the Force may well drop as a percentage of the population but with this rapid increase continuing unabated there is no way that the net Membership/Attendance is going to taper off over the next five plus years.
You just have to read through the Membership list at the International listing for TWF members to see the wide diversity of our members as an example.
The rugby supporting new arrivals will continue to far exceed the AFL supporting new arrivals.
Your first point arguing that the average was increased could equally be argued that the average was decreased by the results of the season. We will never know what the effect of the Crusaders draw would have had as we didn't return to Subiaco to play however, with far greater depth going into 2007 and the promise of better results there is no reason to suggest that average attendances will be decreased next year.
While I respect the fact that you spend a lot more time looking into this topic than the rest of us, I think your logic regarding expansion to be pretty short sighted and, well, stupid. To say that the Eagles have had to go ten years without being able to expand so therefore the Force can just suck it up and halve their potential crowd is probably the most idiotic thing I have ever read regarding stadia. According to a recent newspaper article the Eagles could walk and extra 8,000+ members into a new stadium this weekend. As many people don't register knowing that the waiting list is ridiculously long, I would suggest the real figure there is more likely to be more like 10,000. Also because Subiaco sells out, the Eagles miss out on a huge number of walk up tickets every week. Not everyone wants to fork out for full season memberships because not all of us live in the city. There is also a huge population who lives in the city but work on the mines who wouldn't take out memberships.
Likewise with the Force, I know of many who didn't take out memberships as their pre-arranged rosters would mean they would be out on the mine more than on break. They then, along with many other Perth residents, chose not to go because all that was left available were the crappy seats.
I put it to you then Egan, in your eyes, what type of average would the Force have needed to achieve in their first year to justify a larger stadium being built? How large an average greater than the proposed dog box do we need to set to prove that the proposals being put forward, through you and your site, will choke the code in Western Australia?
How do we ever make the next step to a greater stadium once we fill ME in the first year of the move there?
What sort of morons are in control of stadia in this State that think it is quite acceptable to build something to stand for the next 50+ years in a booming State and economy on the basis of establishment figures?
You do recall that the Force themselves in their S14 bid budgeted for 4,000 full members in year one don't you? If they can get it so underestimated, what makes you think that the conservative estimates on growth are correct now? And, on the back of the Socceroos huge success, it's not as if soccer is about to disappear either!
Build the big stadium, lock up the ends for smaller matches if you have to (to create atmosphere), and allow growth in the code by having seating available for ALL of those who want to go!

[The Lone Hydrangea]

Thats the most lucid report i have read in this thread about this issue.
Next time Burgs,dont hold back.Excellent.

[frontrow]

Hear, hear Burgs!!!! I am one of those mine workers, who couldn`t see the point of spending a large wad of cash to miss 70% of the games. But i am still a huge supporter, and endeavour to get to games whenever a chance arises, and up here, there are plenty of kiwis, other eastern staters, and various nationals, all in a similar dilemma, but still keen to attend matches, be they supporters of the FORCE or the opposition teams.
Good post burgs

[The InnFORCEr]

Is Burgs right, or is he right.....

[Egan]

What you seem quite happy to overlook Egan is that there is a massive weekly increase arriving to live in Perth on the back of the mineral boom and other better opportunities.
These people are coming from NSW, Qld, South Africa, New Zealand, and Zimbabwe and still they come from the traditional UK countries. These are all rugby playing origins and the majority of arrivals are all rugby followers.
Membership of the Force may well drop as a percentage of the population but with this rapid increase continuing unabated there is no way that the net Membership/Attendance is going to taper off over the next five plus years.
You just have to read through the Membership list at the International listing for TWF members to see the wide diversity of our members as an example.
The rugby supporting new arrivals will continue to far exceed the AFL supporting new arrivals.
Your first point arguing that the average was increased could equally be argued that the average was decreased by the results of the season. We will never know what the effect of the Crusaders draw would have had as we didn't return to Subiaco to play however, with far greater depth going into 2007 and the promise of better results there is no reason to suggest that average attendances will be decreased next year.
While I respect the fact that you spend a lot more time looking into this topic than the rest of us, I think your logic regarding expansion to be pretty short sighted and, well, stupid. To say that the Eagles have had to go ten years without being able to expand so therefore the Force can just suck it up and halve their potential crowd is probably the most idiotic thing I have ever read regarding stadia. According to a recent newspaper article the Eagles could walk and extra 8,000+ members into a new stadium this weekend. As many people don't register knowing that the waiting list is ridiculously long, I would suggest the real figure there is more likely to be more like 10,000. Also because Subiaco sells out, the Eagles miss out on a huge number of walk up tickets every week. Not everyone wants to fork out for full season memberships because not all of us live in the city. There is also a huge population who lives in the city but work on the mines who wouldn't take out memberships.
Likewise with the Force, I know of many who didn't take out memberships as their pre-arranged rosters would mean they would be out on the mine more than on break. They then, along with many other Perth residents, chose not to go because all that was left available were the crappy seats.
I put it to you then Egan, in your eyes, what type of average would the Force have needed to achieve in their first year to justify a larger stadium being built? How large an average greater than the proposed dog box do we need to set to prove that the proposals being put forward, through you and your site, will choke the code in Western Australia?
How do we ever make the next step to a greater stadium once we fill ME in the first year of the move there?
What sort of morons are in control of stadia in this State that think it is quite acceptable to build something to stand for the next 50+ years in a booming State and economy on the basis of establishment figures?
You do recall that the Force themselves in their S14 bid budgeted for 4,000 full members in year one don't you? If they can get it so underestimated, what makes you think that the conservative estimates on growth are correct now? And, on the back of the Socceroos huge success, it's not as if soccer is about to disappear either!
Build the big stadium, lock up the ends for smaller matches if you have to (to create atmosphere), and allow growth in the code by having seating available for ALL of those who want to go!

Nice post mate.

Now I just need to state, that I have been whinging about this for many many years, not just on MES but stadium funding in general, I got pissed off about it so much, that I have become a realist.

Not saying that your demands aren't warranted and that the state government is right...just being a realist because of dissapointment from so many years.

An example, the current State Treasurer tells us that we may not even get a 60,000 seat stadium at the end of a taskforce.

For somebody who sees the value that sport brings as do you, this disheartens me, but shows the attitude within government.

So after many years of reading, doing impassioned pleas about the disastrous funding of our stadiums and criticising the stadium funding no end, I have become a realist that is pessimistic of trying to convince a government that is like talking to a brick wall.

When I talked to Ron Alexander the ability to see stadiums as a liablity shocked me, the website is not my site, but I have followed the MES saga intricately...this also gets me down.

Now this is why I can understand why people on this forum feel so impassioned about getting a stadium that they desire.

I understand that, but my views have been shaped by following these issues and understanding of the absolute contempt they have of spending a significant amount of money on stadia in general.

Thus my reaction is, get the job done, prove although you shouldn't have to that you can get to 32,000. Sell Out every game in a 25,000 seat stadium and thus the government is forced to build it to 32,000.

Sure you don't get what you want straight away, sure its not fair that people are shut out, but in reality we live in Western Australia.

Now I think Western Force fans never really got into the other professional codes in Western Australia, thus never actually realise the sheer caimpainging needed to get a rectangular stadium.

The original rectangular stadium near the Convention Centre was to house eventually 30,000 people, the stadium was never built...

There was also plans by Perth Glory to develop Leederville Oval of their own back, then the Government came to the party with a huge sum of that magnificent figure of 6m.

Thats right folks, for all what soccer achieved over the years, the government could only fork out $6m for a rectangular stadium, the fact it took till 2002 before redevelopment on a rectangular stadium began also show the inept culture within government of stadium funding.

I realise your issues over the migration and I note it, but the prospects are that many who went to the games this year have followed the hype of the club, a loss really doesn't mean that crowds are affected.

In fact Perth Glory had huge crowds in 97/98 which is their highest in the clubs history...yet they never made the finals.

Western Warriors where getting crowds up to 8000. In fact Perth Glory believed that Force took away fans in the first year.

Now I know we can get caught up in the hype of the Force and I believe their is solid backing for it.

But

WARL Cheif Geoff Baldwin
Town of Vincent Chief John Giorgi
Perth Glory Membership Manager Mark Hughes.

All have indicated to me that the Force crowds will decrease and they can not see it sustainable.

Now of course I note the conflict of interest, I note the fact that they are not complete experts in the field, but it does highlight the attitude that the Force have not been able to change, despite the season it had.

This attitude is obviously reflected in government circles, now whether rightly or wrongly, a lot of people in Perth use the Reds example and use that against the Force.

Now the Force are up against it, because it has these issues in Perth culture. If 3 officials explain that the sustainability of Force is not there, the Major Stadia Taskforce is also wanting to see the sustainability before it says Perth needs a 32,000 rectangular stadium...it is the reason why the government is cautious.

Now summing up this element, it is indeed not the Force fans fault, not the clubs fault, but culture that exists in Perth means that the club should look at the realistic element of what it can get right away, but this is just my view, I hold no power in this element.

I put it to you then Egan, in your eyes, what type of average would the Force have needed to achieve in their first year to justify a larger stadium being built? How large an average greater than the proposed dog box do we need to set to prove that the proposals being put forward, through you and your site, will choke the code in Western Australia?How do we ever make the next step to a greater stadium once we fill ME in the first year of the move there?

Now I need to state this is not my site, but I have been writing for numerous years for the site.

Firstly you would have needed a 40,000 average a week to have even started a state government looking at 35,000.

Perth Glory where getting 43,242 to the NSL GF, but this did not change at all the urgency of state officials for building a rectangular stadium, Soccer fans where still playing at a substandard Oval/Rectangular Stadium.

The stadium proposed will choke the code, the same issues can be stated about Subiaco Oval, it is riddled through the report of the Major Stadia Taskforce, that the biggest hindrance to Force growth is the suitability of Subiaco Oval.

Is it better to stay at Subiaco Oval in the long term, or is it better to go to MES...what loses you more fans?

In some sporting organisations, the ideals of selling out is attractive to them, eg Melbourne Tigers, now they are at a 3,500 seat stadium, yet they looked at it and thought it actually becomes a good marketing tool and becomes a good problem if seats become scarce and shows the power of the sporting organisation to achieve a sell out.

Burgs, I agree with a lot of what you say, but I also know the intricacies of government funding, I may not have addressed all your issues, but this is why I believe Force should except the 25,000 seat stadium initially, if they are selling out every game, it gives them a very powerful case to justify the 32,000.

If the state are telling the Force, that they will not go straight to 32,000.

Why are the Force still talking to that brick wall?

In fact as an all sports fan, it comes with jeaulosy that initially the WA State Government was more accomodating in stadia infrasture and at short notice, then has ever been the case for other codes in this state...and thus why you probably see my aspects of thinking the Force are greedy, because a little bit of envy comes into it the ability the Force has had of getting funding even before a team was here.

Eg WACA's last redevelopment was done entirely by the WACA administration.

In the end, I am glad some debate has come onto the Whole Force forum, its exactly the sort of thing I enjoy doing.

[Happy]

Town of Vincent Chief John Giorgi


All have indicated to me that the Force crowds will decrease and they can not see it sustainable.

Is these the same person who said they don't see the Force homes games as significant sporting events???