Western Force 2010 - Strengths & Weaknesess

[zimeric]

given that the Force spent oodles of cash on O'connor im pretty sure they'll be keen to hold on to him too...what did his contract say? it was 1 yr with option to extend for a year wasnt it?

[Lee Grant]

I would lay out all my vcash that *someone* will get signed before the season starts. I don't think that person will be at all disappointing given the current climate.

If you are talking about the 2010 season I don't think that's likely for 2 reasons:

1. They can't offer anybody else a full contract.

IIRR the number of S14 contracts given by franchises now has been lowered from 33 to 31. This was done to lower the payrolls of the teams and also to free up a few players for 2011. The hope is that they will stay in the country to serve with the existing teams as they lose players to Melbourne, or to go to Melbourne themselves.

Since it's confirmed by Burgs that Tyrrell has a S14 contract, the total number of Force players is at the limit of 31. This doesn't include professional Academy players, but they can't get onto the park unless there is a longish injury in the 31. [Then if they play 3 games they have to be given rookie contracts mid season, which is more expensive.]

Thus the Tahs were allowed to contract Daisy Dennis as the 32nd even before Fava announced his retirement.

2. Anybody decent would have already been stitched up.

The European season doesn't end until May/June. The Japanese season finishes whilst the Super14 is on. Basically you are talking about a player who is unwanted by any professional team at the minute.

I looks probable that Cowan would be used at hooker if Whittaker or Tyrrell is crocked.

It's a pity that the Force missed out on Waikato hooker Ole Avei, if he was still eligible for Oz. He was the obvious poach to be made.

Or, there could be a poach from a Sydney club. Manly hooker Elvis Taione is a tough nut and one of my picks for a Melbourne squad, and Sydney Uni's Ben Roberts is keeping Nathan Charles (who I rate) in 2nd grade; so he's got a bit of credibility. [Charles is in the Brumbies stable.]

Either of these guys will have to be parked in the pro Academy until the injury occurs. It's expensive - but insurance always is.


On the renewal of Force contracts: I have Cowan, Pocock, Shepherd and O'Young, plus rookie Luke Jones, as players who should be kept when their contracts end in 2010. Harris and Hunt won't be missed a lot methinks, though I haven't seen Hunt play senior rugby yet, to be fair.

Pretorius is a special case and the Force should move heaven and earth to get To'omua to replace him in 2011. I think he is more likely to move west than Lealiifano. Then the Force can get a marquee hooker for 2011. But that will have to be settled ASAP as the rosters for 2010/11 in Europe will be well in place within 2 months.

I am unsure of the termination dates for DHP and Tatupu. Tyrrell is a question mark too, but I guess he won't be going anywhere.

[James]

As far as I'm aware Lee the number hasn't been reduced- teams are simply choosing to reduce it due to financial restraints. I think you must be mistaken or why else would they be talking to guys like Bandise Maku before the Boks tour. There is a spot open. No point arguing about this now we will see what happens in another 6 weeks when one of us gets to gloat 'I told you so'. Pretty confident it will be me too .

Incidentally Cowan signed a 2 year deal this year.

And Zimmy I think JO'Cs contract is for a full 2 not a 1+1 thingy.

[zimeric]

Pretorius is a special case and the Force should move heaven and earth to get To'omua to replace him in 2011. I think he is more likely to move west than Lealiifano. Then the Force can get a marquee hooker for 2011. But that will have to be settled ASAP as the rosters for 2010/11 in Europe will be well in place within 2 months.

Although i agree with your Pretorius comment, IMHO we will be looking closer at developing our current stock into replacing him rather than importing another Brumby.... once bitten...
Hooker is still an issue moving forward though... and will have to be No1 priority for 2011 if noone is found before Feb next year.

[Lee Grant]

As far as I'm aware Lee the number hasn't been reduced- teams are simply choosing to reduce it due to financial restraints.

Incidentally Cowan signed a 2 year deal this year.

Thanks for that - don't know that you are right, but don't know if you are wrong either. I'll put my money on you.

Here is a link about them thinking about it from last March:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1111119163766

.... but I can't find a link confirming that they had lowered it to 31. Maybe I heard it on the radio driving around, but maybe I had a senior moment. Wouldn't be my first.


The Tahs had exactly 31 also and Hickey waffled, when asked about why he released Dennis earlier when Deans had picked him for the EOYT, that his roster was full but that Dennis could be chosen later because of injuries to others - or something like that.

By that time I think he had Dennis 95% in the bag because it was Sydney to a brick that Fava would never play Super14 again.

The Reds and Brumbies sites are no help in confirming a 31 man limit - or otherwise. The Brumbies have 29 names listed and the Reds 30. If they get over 31 and it's clear cut as to who has a Super14 contract and who is in an Academy, then I have made a mistake.

Thanks for that Cowan info - I was going by the June 2008 link that said he has signed for 2009 and had a 1 year option for 2010 - and then I stopped looking. Now I see the update you mentioned - the 1 year option became a 2 year deal.

Do you have any info on the end date for the contracts of DHP or Tatupu, or have you answered that before?

[jjk]

I think the Force have a pretty good squad generally. The brumbies have clearly the best squad with the Force and the Tahs close behind. The Reds squad doesn't look very strong at all.
I think the Force squad can cover most positions pretty well with the obvious exception of hooker.
In regards to the 10 position I noticed people talking about Sam Harris playing 10. I think the Force recruited him mainly as a 12 and only as a back up 10. I watched him play this season for the Rats. The first half of the year he played as a 12 then missed about 6 or 7 games in the middle of the season because of a foot injury he sustained in Japan and when he returned he played as a 10. I think the Rats went pretty well when he played 10 in, except the Eastwood game where the front row of the Woodies consisted of Benn Robinson, Matt Dunning and Keiran Longbottom. The Woodies forwards smashed the Rats off the park that day and the other match being the Gordon semi final match.
The Syd Uni game he played very well, the Easts game he played very well.
I actually think the combination of Sheehan or O'Young at 9, Pretorius at 10, Harris/ at 12, Cross at 13 and O'Connor at 15 is quite good then you can also change up the way we play with Harris going to 10, O'Connor to 12 and Shepherd to 15, there is alot of versatlity in our squad.
I'm not sure why we are being so negative in relation to our squad when it looks quite good and the season is a month and a half.
Footnote if anyone is interested- I noticed Sam Harris played for the Honda Heat in Japan where they won the 2nd tier comp then came 2nd in the top league challenge which enabled them to get promoted. He played mainly as 10 and the Heat had quite a successful season. This season they recruited former Force hooker Tai McIssac as a forwards coach and former Brumbies player Gene Fairbanks and they have won 1 match from 11 and with 2 matches to go the Heat looks like being demoted again. The Todd Louden coached and Steve Larkham led Ricoh Back Rams ( the other promoted team) are having a reasonably successful season currently in 8th spot.
Another footnote - IBM a 2nd tier team in Japan is coached by Steve Tuynmann, I think he would be a good guy to get onto our coaching team.

[travelling_gerry]

I'm not sure why we are being so negative in relation to our squad when it looks quite good and the season is a month and a half.

JJK, the supporters aren't being negative. We are very upbeat about the side for 2010 and can see the upside here from previous years.

[James]

Do you have any info on the end date for the contracts of DHP or Tatupu, or have you answered that before?

I don't know for either. I try to keep a record because you always forget but those two haven't had widely publicised notices regarding their contracts. For DHP I would assume (and I know you don't like those) that their first contract (academy 2008) would have been followed up by 2 year deals putting them off contract in 2010. Seems to stack up with the fact they are still here and I doubt either of them would really want to commit to 3 years at their age.

I don't think most people are being too negative JJK. I for one am really excited about all the changes and the new ground. It might not be interesting but I reckon a backline of Harris/Pretorius/DHP/Harris/Cross/Shepherd/Bartholomeusz for 50 minutes to batter away to be followed by Chris O'Young and James O'Connor to exploit the space would work a treat.

[shasta]

I try to keep a record because you always forget .

Yes, I sure do.

Wouldn't it be a great idea if somebody who does maintain a current list made it into a thread and kept it up to date.

[jjk]

sorry guys! I'm really looking forward to 2010, I think the Force will have a pretty good season.
Actually, the other day I watched the Lions vs Waratahs which i recorded earlier in the year and by chance I still had it. Pretorius had a very good game. He was controlling the match very well with his kicking and chosing opportune times to run the ball, I think he'll be good. Also had a waratahs game against the Highlanders by chance still recorded and in that match Sam Harris came on for an injured Lachie Turner and played very well as a 10 in very bad conditions. Harris played more of a direct game whereas Pretorius was organising from first receiver.

[James]

I have three of last years Force games kindly lent to me by Laura. Against the Tahs, Brumbies and Highlanders. Great viewing. It's funny what people say about Giteau's kicking out of hand because twice in 10 minutes in that Force vs Highlanders game his poorly directed kicks lead to tries seconds later. At least we know we won't lose as many as in 2006 .

[Lee Grant]

Although i agree with your Pretorius comment, IMHO we will be looking closer at developing our current stock into replacing him rather than importing another Brumby.... once bitten....

A young bloke may well become a Perth resident, and Lealiifano and To'omua are not from the ACT, as Giteau was. He went home.

As for your current stock: Braid stayed on for a 2nd year for the Reds; so maybe Pretorius will stay for another gig too. Hunt didn't impress me as a schoolboy player but that is neither here nor there; but I haven't seen any reports about how he went in senior club rugby in Qld this year. He may be OK. And I have mentioned that Harris was very hot and cold for the Rats this year - and I saw my local club play a lot.

I wouldn't play Rabbit there, as I have explained before.

Changing the marquee player to be a hooker makes sense for me but it won't be unless one of the young Oz guns leaves Canberra to get out of Giteau's shadow, in 2011.

I see that Kyle Goodwin has a Tier II contract with the Force. I thought he was the best flyhalf at the Oz Schools tournament this year but the Oz Schools selectors preferred Rohan Saifoloi from Qld, with Kyle on the bench.

Kyle is a steady Eddie kind of a flyhalf and I liked him because he made his supports look good, though he wasn't afraid to have a run to keep defences honest. He'll be ready a few years down the track. He's the best schools flyhalf I have seen from WA.



[PS - not to the point but - looking at the Academy list I noticed the name of Oliver Hoskins as a Tier III Academy guy. He looked good in the Schools tournament too and I thought he was a chance for the Oz A Schools team.

He didn't make it and I forgot about him. Then I was at the Oz U/16 tournament a couple of months later and there he was as captain of the WA mob. Bloody hell, he was an U/16 THP and looking good earlier in the open tournament.

He had a terrific U/16 tournament and I would have looked forward to seeing him in the Open tournament again, next year - but they are up in Qld; so I'll miss it.

As much as one can tell of a 16 y.o. player, he looks like he will be a big enough man to be a professional prop 5 years + from now and I expect to see him running on the park for the Force.

You read it here first.]

[brokendown gunfighter]

Oliver's older brother,Tobius,a mid field back,went over to Sydney mid last season & played a few games for Eastwood(I think)

As a side note(or ,as you would put it,a digression)their Mother was one of the instigaters of the Rally at Subiaco Oval in support of Western Australia having a super 14 team

[Burgs]

Thanks for the insight Lee, we don't get to see enough of the young guns over here.
For local reference, Kyle Godwin (one "o") is a product of Aquinas College and Soaks while Ollie is a good Scotch boy via Nedlands. Looking forward to seeing Ollie go around for Scotch again this year, I seem to recall him as the biggest of the Forwards last year and the Coach pointing out to me he was actually younger than most. Pretty sure that was him.

Probably two points of interest here, firstly neither are from powerhouse Hale and secondly WA schooled players are starting to make their way through the junior ranks more regularly. Good signs for the future now that they are being given the opportunities with the code having an improved presence and locals having a better pathway to higher honours. This should also be the case in Melbourne in coming years.

[Lee Grant]

I don't know for either. I try to keep a record because you always forget but those two haven't had widely publicised notices regarding their contracts. For DHP I would assume (and I know you don't like those) that their first contract (academy 2008) would have been followed up by 2 year deals putting them off contract in 2010. Seems to stack up with the fact they are still here and I doubt either of them would really want to commit to 3 years at their age.

James - I came across this link from the Brisbane Times which lists the contract termination dates of Force players. It may be useful for your records.

It's 10 months out of date and some of the players listed have been released from their contracts since - and some were out of date when the article was written IIRR - but it gives termination years for Tatupu and DHP as 2010. It does stack up.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/rugb...1124-jcja.html