Tahs hunt African players

[GIGS20]

Hang on mate, we can't be sucking all the good players out of the NRL, as you've been delighting in telling us for the last three years we steal all our players from the QRL, surely we don't have room for Mungoes!

[Cowboy]

i think using the nrl under 20's comp as a way to develop those players is fine, it would be fantastic to see an aru logo on the front of a under 20's nrl jersey as a sponsor, then get the players back at 20/21 when they have there bodies and front on defence under control and bring them back into super rugby

Are you honestly saying that you are happy to have such a poor system of youth development in NSW that you need to rely on what is essentially a different sport, in order to achieve these skills etc. (Why not have your back's play AFL for a year so they will be good under the high ball).
In what other rugby nation would the thought that "we'll just let 'em switch to league for a while and they'll come back when we're ready to take them" be possible. It's arrogant to be so sure they will come back, risks the future development of union in this country and ultimately defeatist that you have assumed that nrl is a better path for development than anything union can create.

With thinking that we either need to scour South Africa for talent or let NRL do our work for us it's no wonder other people on this site can't stand the TAH's.

[waratahjesus]

Are you honestly saying that you are happy to have such a poor system of youth development in NSW that you need to rely on what is essentially a different sport, in order to achieve these skills etc. (Why not have your back's play AFL for a year so they will be good under the high ball).
In what other rugby nation would the thought that "we'll just let 'em switch to league for a while and they'll come back when we're ready to take them" be possible. It's arrogant to be so sure they will come back, risks the future development of union in this country and ultimately defeatist that you have assumed that nrl is a better path for development than anything union can create.

With thinking that we either need to scour South Africa for talent or let NRL do our work for us it's no wonder other people on this site can't stand the TAH's.

i dont think its the ideal way to develop players, but i said i dont have a problem with it in the current climate of rugby, beneath super rugby level (and even in super rugby level) the state unions are to fractured and the responsability of the size of the catchment area that nsw rugby is responsable for, and i say the size not in arrogance but in a we compete with 6 nrl clubs & 10 under 20's nrl clubs, afl and soccer clubs to keep talent, we can only offer the same amount of contracts as perth or the reds or brumbies to our players coming through so we cant compete dollar wise to keep them from the time they finish school till the time they develop without
a) getting rid of established talent (ie. the Matt Burke situation which the Tahs got baged for in another thread here)
b) throwing money at people in a bidding war with league when there going to be playing club rugby and three or four games in the development squad.
the Tahs are linked to every NRL player that comes off contract and every other player who wants to up there market value as a bargening tool by managers, there is a different rumour int he paper everyday, as far as the article about getting players from south africa, as i said, if there young and want to migrate to Aus, i have no problem with it, both Vics and Rathbone have had success here and i would welcome some front rowers from over there in todays professional rugby climate!

the arrogance of someone from perth to criticise the development system of another state when there own team is not self sifficiant is a huge argument to start mate! its been established for a long time that the youth development system does not work in rugby and there is to much of a gap but there isnt a simple way to fix it!

i would like to see what happens to all this bravado in perth if a fifth super rugby team comes to melbourne and there corporate sector gets involved and poaches your players!

[travelling_gerry]

yep...they reallllly love their sport in Melbourne....

[Cowboy]

i think using the nrl under 20's comp as a way to develop those players is fine, it would be fantastic to see an aru logo on the front of a under 20's nrl jersey as a sponsor, then get the players back at 20/21 when they have there bodies and front on defence under control and bring them back into super rugby. would work fantastically!

If I have made the mistake of thinking that you would prefer to have a development system that keeps union talent "in house" after reading this part of your post then I am sorry, but it's hard to see how I could possibly come to any other conclusion than the one I did.

To me your proposal simply highlights to me what is wrong with rugby in Australia.
I should probaly expand upon this point, so I'll try (in many ways this applies to New Zealand and South Africa too).
Union as a professional sport has a problem with it's fundamental buisness structure. What is it's main buisness (product)? Is it the Wallabies?, is it Super14? We know it isn't the ARC.
If the Wallabies are the main product then they have to play plenty of games (seeing an increase in games this year). The wallaby players would be very well paid, however where do the future players come from? (maybe an expanded Aust A program). If we were in NZ or SA the answer is obvious, the Currie or Air New Zealand Cup. However in Australia the sports market is almost saturated and the NRL effectively controls the market share which the Currie Cup and Air New Zealand Cup do for their respective countries. Which is why strenghtening it by allowing most of your junior talent to compete in it can't help our game overall.

Interestingly all three of these competitions are currently experiencing difficulties with revenue/crowds and player retention. Simply put there are too many players for the amount of income into these competitions to be able to pay them all well enough to compete with other competitions. The next level down is club rugby.

Super Rugby was thrown together rather hastily even though the teams usually have tradition behind them. It currently does not have enough games to be highly profitable and seems to suffer from a lack of support in some respects, small crowds on the East Coast, where is the ARU advertising for teams? it seems New Zealand and South Africa are always trying to stuff it off or get in a pre-emptive strike for it's new look. And one thing that is for certain is all three countries are looking for more money from somewhere, be it Japan, USA or lotto tickets.

So we are currently stuck where we are, between the national teams as the main income for Union and also trying to run Super14 to develop depth of talent/fan base and have this competition be successful. If your SA or NZ you are also trying to keep your local national comp going too. I don't think that it can all be achieved.

Personally I think that the best way forward is to expand and strengthen the commitment to Super Rugby as the main income earner and possibly reduce the number of games for the Wallabies (yes controversial, I know). Or even have them released from their super14 teams during the season furthering the need for depth at super14 level. The national comps would need to be reduced (not popular).

Of course all of this could be total crap, but hell thats what internet forums are for.

[shasta]

i think professional sport is slowly becoming the same though, the waratahs train on and off with the roosters now, they share facilities and coaching techniques,

And the sooner the NRL and ARU see the sense in replacing the varoius brands of modified rules for junior players in both codes with a suitable hybrid the better. The idea came from Wayne Bennett & Alex Evans and it's a beauty. The payoff is that much more bang for buck can be achieved with a streamlined coaching/development system where both codes contribute in an environment where they are under attack from the AFL.

The players will end up where and in what code they decide. But at least we might develop enough good ones to fill all the spots and be competitive and solvent - in both codes.

[waratahjesus]

m point wasnt that all players should sign under 20's contracts but that i didnt have a probelm with talent that the aru has already identified spending a couple of years in league!
berrick barnes is a much better player for having sent time in league, and i believe in this current climate were an 18/19 year old kid is going to chase a dollar rather than a passion in some cases that it might not be a bad thing to allow them to chase a dollar and keep an eye on them, (thats were the affiliation with a team comes into it!) we cant retain every player that comes through. the turn over at super rugby level would be to great.
a decade or so ago now when i finished school one of my mates from my year was in the australian schoolboys side as a hooker, before he had even played a game (he was on the bench for the first trial) a manager for league came up and offered him a trial with st george, this is without playing a game of league in his life and not even having boots on, the agent even went as far to tell him to get his dad to give him a call so they could discuss money. the Aus schoolboy side usually contains alot of very good players, ricky stewart, laurie daley, brad fitler where all australian schoolboy union players as well as a crapload of others who went to league for money and excelled, i think having a more liberal aproach to people going to league (again not what i want but im not against it) might work in the ARU's favor until lightning strikes and O'neil is alowed to take credit for it!

[Cowboy]

I guess my point is that your idea is to work within the structure that currently exists and accept it's realities.
My point is that everything still points to a structural problem within union professionalism. In my experience structural problems require structural solutions and it is better to work towards one than to accept bandaid type solutions.

If the players at schoolboy level that you mentioned before were already on contract to a NSW academy side then would they have moved to league?

Ultimately my point is simply rugby is competing in a very demanding market and it needs to start actually competing, rather than bitch about it. This means beating the NRL for the best talent and taking their revenue rather than adding to it.

[waratahjesus]

agree with you, it needs solution and i would prefer as a ns welshman to have home grown talent playing for us, but at 18 years of age, we just dont have the positions or money available to accademy sides to compete with league!

even if the ARC had worked, were competing with schoolkids being offered signing bonuses for going to league, steve roaches son who was a front rower was in the accademy side and got afford 100 grand from the sharks, were is he going to go? a couple more years of hard work to get a contract with nsw or straight to the sharks were he can start cashing checks!