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Thread: Hold..................................Engage!

  1. #1
    Veteran Jess's Avatar
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    Pause..................................Engage!

    Ok it's ranting time. (I seem to have being doing a lot of this lately)

    I just wanted to say that I really really don't like the new scrum laws purely based on the inconsistency of the various referees.

    I can't imagine how frustrated the front rows of each team must have been last night when bloody Wayne Barnes seemed to wait an eternity between each call... especially between 'Pause' and 'Engage' then kept punishing the Boks for early engagement.

    Now I don't often complain when calls go our way like that... but in this case I thought it was really really unfair.

    He seemed to get better in the second half, only when he screamed 'ENGAGE' at the top of his lungs so no one in the entire stadium couldn't say they didn't hear it.

    How is it fair when some Refs do the 4 commands in very quick succession and other Refs like Barnes do it sooooo slowly?

    Poor forwards... don't they have enough to worry about in the scrum already?!?

    Ok. Rant over.

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    Last edited by Jess; 17-06-07 at 11:11.
    I made Happy sad...

  2. #2
    Have to agree with that, my dad and i said the same thing after watching the shute shield that afternoon. Seemed to be the case for all the rugby on yesterday, very inconsistant timing on the scrum calls.

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  3. #3
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    ditto Jess.....the Refs doing the Pacific Nations games seem to be adhering to the edict of crouch......touch..pause....engage...

    Not the rest.....the ref last night held them far too long..

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    Veteran Contributor frontrow's Avatar
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    I thought the ref had a brilliant game last night, but agree his scrum calls were way too drawn out...Otherwise he had a great game...Of course there were a few things missed but generally he was OK...

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    Had to laugh, having had three blown up in a row for not pausing, he then agreed with Jaun Smith to call the engage louder.
    He then totally changed his timing of the call to ensure they could hear the engage on the High Veldt!

    Credit where credit is due, I think that is the best performed Australian scrum in the last three years and (yes, I am saying it!) Dunning had an outstanding match.
    For me Sharpey was the pick of the Forwards but Dunney and Vicks were very close behind.
    From memory there was very little difference between Moore and Freier in the throwing and Moore had a far better match around the field.
    Shepherdson did some great tackling and hit ups.
    As usual Trestle ran around with his hands in the air wondering what Continent he was on.
    The Backrow I would call "servicable" but none of them played to their full potential. I'm still in favour of Waugh playing the first 55-60 and then bringing Smith on with pleny of time to cause havoc.
    Over all though I think the starting eight can be proud of their match.

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    Veteran Jess's Avatar
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    Just realised I put 'hold' instead of 'pause'. Whoops!

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    I made Happy sad...

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    A little bit of "Bravehearting" Jess?
    "Hold-Hold-HOLD..."

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    Champion Contributor Mtbeaver's Avatar
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    Being a prop (most of the time), I think he did alright.

    He was waiting for them to stabilize before calling engage.

    With the new laws I know this does take longer, but when done correctly, makes for a better engage.

    Both teams were creeping of engaging early, and i don't anyone plans of changing the laws anytime soon so they'll just have to get used to it.

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    the ref had a good game last night and he did the right thing. his scrum calls were a bit dodgy but the players were stuffing up the scrum not him.

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    Champion prop53's Avatar
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    Barnes will after last nights performance will go to the world cup. And i am sorry but thats what it is all about at the moment. He really did not have an idea of what was going on in the scrum. His open play was not bad but come on he was a joke at the scrums. If i was still playing me thinks some words would have been had like GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER

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    Veteran Jess's Avatar
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    Pedantic Refs get World Cup spots...

    gives the illusion they know what they're doing.

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    I made Happy sad...

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    Veteran Ecky's Avatar
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    Right then, some thoughts from the middle, having had a "similar" game last Saturday myself:

    In the pre-match talk, I imagine "Barnesy" (as he called himself when he went to TMO) told both sets of front rows something along the lines of "when I call 'touch pause' both sets of props will touch the point of the shoulder of his opposite prop and then withdraw the arm. WHEN BOTH FRONT ROWS ARE THEN STEADY I will call 'engage'."

    So, if one or both of the front rows are dicking around, or even moving a bit, after the "touch pause" then Barnesy does not call them in.

    I had a similar issue in my game on the weekend, resulting in one of the props (the most experienced one) asking me to speed the call (of 'engage') up. My reply was that I wasn't prepared to call it until both front rows were steady. Once I mentioned this, both front rows seemed to get the idea and they suddenly became much steadier, allowing me to speed up the calls.

    So, my lesson from this was to try and make sure the front rows are actually listening to what I am saying pre-match - in that it is they who affect the timing of the ref's calls. (More likely 'tis the locks, who are not in the front row pre-match talk, who are the cause of the unsteadiness but I think the props can swiftly let them know...)

    Any and all feedback from props (the older/more experienced the better) is most welcome.

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    Veteran Contributor frontrow's Avatar
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    It can sometimes be hard to hold back the weight of the pack when waiting for the engage, hence the unsteadyness...Quite disturbing when you have to hold them back because the ref hesitates because he deems the pack unsettled...The advantage in the engagement comes from the initial impact so both teams will try to get the upper hand by hitting first, and if you aren't ready for this because you are waiting too long for the ref then it can get ugly...I believe the props are at thier steadiest when they are crouched and have touched, as distance is more or less already assured for a good engagement and you are already more or less in position to engage, so a quick pause, or none at all would make for a cleaner and safer engagement, in my opinion...

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    Champion RuckNMaul's Avatar
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    sure, Blame the locks for the unstediness if you like but it is a bit hard to hear the ref with your head stuck between a prop and a hooker, Most of my weight does go on the tightys leg but he recons that helps, on a long engage call when the props start creeping in and i start to drop my knees its hard to pull back and if you do your gonna get creamed, as for the call sequence it continues to baffle the best of us. inserted below is the last correspondance i recived from Rugby wa to this matter

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch Hardie, Rugby WA Email Dated - 8/5/07
    SCRUM ENGAGAMENT AND OTHER GAME ASPECTS

    The IRB has advised the following in relation to the scrum engagement and re-enforced a number of other aspects in relation to the playing and refereeing of the game.

    The variation to the scrum engagement should be implemented as soon as practical in competitions within your area of responsibility. The other matters should be drawn to the attention of referees, coaches and players as appropriate.

    SCRUM

    The staged sequence for the scrum engagement is to remain, however referees should adopt the following sequence for the calling of the engagement.

    CROUCH

    TOUCH PAUSE

    ENGAGE

    The referee to make the mark for the scrum and when teams are assembling call CROUCH

    When both teams are in the Crouch position the Referee may then call TOUCH PAUSE. (Please note he is not to say Touch and Pause but must stick to the law of TOUCH PAUSE).

    Once satisfied that the touch has been completed satisfactorily the referee will call ENGAGE.

    EXPLANATION

    There is concern about the amount of time the referees are holding teams in a crouch position and then the delay in calling the other 3 phases.

    The only delay should be that the referee dictates the Engage Call not the teams.

    Due attention is to be given to Front row binding and the scrum feed post engagement.

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    Last edited by RuckNMaul; 19-06-07 at 13:58.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ecky
    Once I mentioned this, both front rows seemed to get the idea and they suddenly became much steadier, allowing me to speed up the calls.
    It is "amazing" how quickly scrums can become steady when they are on their last warning or the other (perhaps percieved stronger) team is putting the ball in...

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