The "Bigger Picture" for WA Rugby

[Burgs]

So before this becomes a Palmyra love fest, back to the thread title.
What are peoples thoughts on the "Bigger Picture" for WA Rugby in importing players?
Should it be open slather, the more the merrier?
Should RWA set limits so as not to swamp the local talent?
Would an option be, if so many want to come, that another team/club will be promoted to open up more options at Premier and Seconds levels in the near future?
Will the high Colts numbers at a couple of Clubs translate into Senior players, with the incentive of Force selection, or will the increase of outside players disillusion our home grown players?
Let's give this some decent thought and responses rather than just throw away lines because I believe to follow the Force is to believe in its purpose as well, the development of WA Rugby for the increased depth of Australian Rugby.

[pruc]

importing players is the answer at the moment. witht he force sees more oppotunites for eastern staters to make it big. and with there expirience it rubs off on others. the profesionalisim of some of the recruits is amazing. for the force to be threat we need a strong premier grade, and this is starting to be established. with the force players allocated to clubs more juniors are interested in the seniors. and there future in rugby. i was lukcy enough to have met david campese when he was in perth. he had a clinic at pally and only about 35 people turned up. most of them 7 and 8 year olds who had never heard of him. yet they were all amazed by his skill etc. with more high profile clinics more intest is built up within the community. now pally is focussing on primary schoolsthat are not main feeders of psa schools. so we can build a club and have consist numbers throughout the players journey through juniors. i feel more work needs to be done at the psa level with some many great talents lost with no pathways after school. i know at wesley its school rugby or no rugby and isnt promoting participation once school is over. now with a new head of rugby at school who still plays for perth gold and wests there is another pathway. what im trying to say is wajru should controll all psa games! like no numbers on players shirts. we can get away with anything in rucks because we have no numbers except in 1st. thats just one of my views.

[frontrow]

I have always found the community aspect of rugby to be its big attraction over other sports, and wholeheartedly agree with Burgs regarding limiting imports so as not to deprive local talent and prospects of a chance to perform as a part of the local team (rural communities in mind here), but when it comes to the 1st division then i believe that the club should take steps to improve thier chances by importing players while at the same time creating a balance with the junior/ available talent, so as not to create disharmony or an exodus from the club. I have found several clubs who i played for in perth were not looking at the big picture, ie "The club", but concentrated too heavily on outside distractions, therefore creating a them and us mentality in the lower grades.

I have also been involved with clubs who embrace thier junior ranks and still manage to retain a competitive team week in week out, both here and back east...These clubs are the best to play for as everyone knows they are a chance of gaining a start due to thier abilities rather than thier reputations...

[pruc]

excatly frontrow! but there is a time for imports. when local talent is limited or a team is struggling and numbers are dropping. that is the time for imports. witht he pally recruitment. i dont think any true pally players were disadvantaged. because they are good second grade players and could easily play firsts but let them have there time developing between colts before rushing them into 1sts where they play real men with real rules!

[blindsid3]

Gentlemen,

lets not lose site of the fact that in 2006, 700 people moved to Perth from the Eastern States per week and

Rugby participation in WA continues to grow rapidly, with 2006 seeing a jump of almost 6,000 players involved in the game across the State.
(RugbyWA Dec 2006)

The WA economy is forecast to grow at twice to three times the national average for the next three years - so we are going to see even more people move here from over east...

So lets break down the numbers then...

29 clubs operate in WA.
6000 new players for 2006.

Thats an average of 206 players per club.

If we assume a full roster of 1 team per age group - U7 - U19 and 5 open grades then that is 18 teams...or 11.4 players per team.

So Palmyra found 5 or so good players and managed to convince them to transfer...it sounds to me like everyone else needs to find and nurture their hidden diamonds...

I reckon that Rugby in WA is in a healthy state for the future - both from "home grown" talent and from the imported kind.

But much of that "imported kind" will come from players emigrating to Perth for their primary vocation...not just for Rugby!

So some clubs will do their homework and market themselves to players moving here from over East...I would if I were in Rugby administration. I would be on the blower to Sydney Uni Rugby Club (and the residential colleges) to find out who is studying engineering, geology or other resource based degrees who plays rugby and is graduating this year...a lot of them will be coming west I would wager...

or you could wait and see who turns up at pre-season training and hope that they play good...and whinge in forums like this if they don't.

Rugby in WA is at a watershed at the moment - a bit like Canberra was ten years ago with the arrival of the Brumbies. Clubs like the Vikings grew so big and strong financially and on the paddock that they started playing teams in the Sydney and Brisbane comps and left the canberra comp behind. Others like the Owls restructured through mergers of longstanding clubs such as Norths, ANU and University of Canberra. The Owls have not won a premiership for years but they are a good breading ground - Laurie Fisher was coach there before the brumbies, Zander Peden was picked up by the Force from there (season marred by injury however) and I'm lead to believe last years 1st grade coach Chook Fowler is on his way west to coach here...

I think we will see a similar outcome here - some clubs will choose to merge in order to develop the financial strength to carry on. All will need to find sources of income "off paddock" - including function centres, bars etc to step up to the new financial requirements of running clubs.

Clubs will also merge to give themselves depth on the paddock...by my quick maths we have enough players for 5 grade sides per cub, plus two colts team and one and a bit age group team...as long as everyone fits into the right age group!

Real depth = 3-4 teams per club per age group (or more), 5 colts teams and 5 grade teams...

So my two cents for the "Where will WA Rugby be"...look to Canberra for guidance 'cos everything that is happening here has happened there already!



For those that say "Restrict Imports"...don't forget its probably NOT rugby that is importing the players....its the economy!

[Burgs]

All great posts fellas!
Finally a thread we're getting our teeth and opinions into!
I did get a little lost though blindsid, could you summarise where you think things will end up with regard to number of Clubs sustainable in Premier Rugby please?
The point you make re "natural migration" (huge) v Rugby migration is 100%.
WA's population is soaring and, fortunately for WA Rugby, many are coming from Rugby States and Nations.
This is what gives me great heart for the Junior Grades and it appears to be translating into Junior Registrations.
Your 6,000 figure is on top of an extra 10,000 for 2005 which was a 23% increase on '04.
Your point pruc re "rushing them into First's" is pretty valid too, I assume it is still the case that better Schoolboy players are starting for Premier teams around the Comp?
I know of several who did back in the 90's and for many it was the beginning of the end of a shortened career as they burnt out too soon.
I think as frontrow supports from first hand experience that there must be a balance, after all for the majority (even the Pro's) people play to have fun and share time with their mates, a means to an end.
Another aspect of the open slather approach to consider is HOW "semi professional" should WA Rugby become?
With the huge resources in WA should we as a Sport look to actually make Premier Grade a Professional Division?
To bite the bullet and actually create something new to Australia and take the lead?
Break the Eastern States model.
The Barrick Mining Red Bulls v Hartley Poynton Blues (Kala v Cott) for example....I dunno...
As we all know, business in WA is big business, the dollars would be there.
Are we actually limiting the ability for these huge National and Multi-National companies to invest in our code by not being professional "enough"?
Keep the posts flowing folks, it's great!

[fulvio sammut]

Congratulations blindsid3 for a perceptive and balanced post. Good advice indeed.

[pruc]

with the whole schools boys thing. there needs to be a crossover pool. because you have guy who are too old to play colts and were stars at colts level but dont have the build to play with the men yet and plus the rules are different in colts compared to seniors. i herd it a few times at pally about some of the younger guys wanting an under 23's comp. or even 21's because they know they arent big enough to play 1sts and they are wasted and dont develop there skillls as much play 4th grade.

[frontrow]

Well pruc, from the sound of the figures blindeside and burgs are spouting (excellent post blindsid3) they may well be able to look into a new grade, ie U23`s or the like as at present it would seem, figurativly speaking, that demand for spots will soon be exceeding the availability of positions...That, or they may expand a 2nd division. They used to have a second division here when i was playing, Waneroo was in it as was southern lions etc...We may need to expand this comp as a stepping stone for those people who are interested in pursuing a more social, rather than a professional , career in rugby, thereby leaving the top clubs in a position to become semi professional, with money backing up the purchasing of talent...It could also act as a "crossover" for the smaller lads coming up through the ranks to gain a bit more experience and get a bit of size about them before taking the step up, and also as a place for those long in the tooth to retire into, and share thier wisdom with the prevoius said youngsters...
All in all, a two tiered division could be a solution if we are to look forward to a semi professional era, incorporating a play off for those teams who top the league, with last place in the first division, therefore creating a possible chance for a lower division club to go up a division... Actually, i think this was how it used to be...
Another idea could be to have a senior club, and a feeder club, along the same lines as above, where juniors can stay with the same club when they have finished in the junior ranks but don`t neccesarily have to go straight into the reserve grades, but rather a division incorporating say u19s,u23`s and a firsts team, allbeit a second tier first team to the premier grade one, for example Palmyra premier grade, could have a feeder club of Palmyra youth, or something like that...
It`s just something to ponder, so now it`s your turn to let me know what you think of that rant...

[pruc]

in years to come this will be a reality. soon joondalup with have a first grade side with the growth they are having in juniors same as mandurah. and maybe even southern lions. buts its not about having a strong juniors club, its about having a strong link between seniors and juniors so the juniors feel they can go on with the club. in previous year i know alot of southern players come to pally becuse there is no where for them to go once the finish juniors. two tiered is good. like in my summer sport (baseball) there is under 18s divi1 and 2 and also satet league then it goes down AAA, A's to social baseball good system with a cross over pool in 18's and everyone from 18's up is pushing to got up a grade.

[Burgs]

Some good stuff there frontrow.
I have wondered why A Grade is effectively "Thirds", is it to do with fixturing?
If it is a talent issue then a few years of exposure at "seconds" status under the current swell in player numbers would surely help to even things out?
To fit with International Rugby there would be a good argument for an Under 21 comp I would have thought?
If a player was good enough he would play in the 1sts or 2nds but the develpoment team would be there for those still maturing.
I would see it as being the third ranked grade in terms of prestige.
So it would see:
Premier Rugby- Semi Professional with the current ten Premier teams.
1st Grade- Overflow of Premier but across all (currently 17) Grade Clubs. Top XV for current A Grade Clubs. Some Semi Pro's, returning from injury etc.
Under 21's- Third layer in terms of merit, some Semi Pro and teams as for 1sts above.
3rd Grade- Effectively the first layer of true amature players.
4ths etc down to Under 19 Colts.
Thoughts?

[pruc]

basing it like in the eastern states? premier grade, 1st's 2nd's.....then onto
5th's. then under 19 and under 21's u21's being a prestige league? as in you are more interested in that then say 2nds? because some of the players could be 18 year olds or some could be bench sitting for 1sts much like the colts system use to be? and u21's full rules? unlike u19's

[Burgs]

No, I was suggesting as above: Premier-1sts-Under 21's-3rds-4ths-5ths-Colts.
Under 21 would be to Under 21 World Championship rules (very few differences I understand) and unless a player was elite then they would play at this level. ie If the Premier or 1st XV's needed someone to make up the numbers they wouldn't be from U21's, only if they were a first pick star. May need some regulation to cap that aspect.
Try not to picture it with existing players but three four years down the track when there are more players going around and more players staying on past 21 years.

[pruc]

flaw it it all though. premier grade and 1st grade teams wouldnt play at the same place if in 1st rade they played all 19clubs. say palmyra were playing cott but there 1st's team were playing at joondalup?

[frontrow]

I couldn`t understand your last post pruc, can you say it again (not being a smartass either)
Are you trying to say that some grades may be playing elsewhere when the premier grade is playing at home for example...?Like Burgs said, picture it in the future, and with time to plan i think a system could be worked out where most, if not all games can be scheduled so this doesn`t occur...It would also help in the rostering of refs as well, having a schedule which doesn`t see them scooting from one ground doing 3rd grade, to another ground to do firsts etc, or as was my case where you`d ref in am for juniors, race to your next ref job, then race to the ground to play first grade...No wonder i got booked so often...bloody coppers, didn`t want to know about my schedule...