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Thread: Premiership 2018

  1. #346
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    Zed

    Good points so let me try and answer them as best I can.

    1. Never have RWA insisted on any clubs having grades 1 -3. Those that showed intent were then subject to some pretty strict due diligence which has led to the Coastal Cavaliers being put in place to accommodate the ambitions of players in Mandurah and Rocky. Curtin sadly withdrew from this Division 1 competition because they did lack the numbers, Southern lions and ARKS the only other 2 clubs have provided evidence they can field sufficient players for 3 teams. Competitive is another aspect and from our evaluation, it would be a bit premature to believe every Premierclub will inflict heavy losses on every newby club. Personally I do believe many of the old Premier clubs will in fact suffer a loss here and there. However, all newby clubs have made it clear they do expect some big losses and as such are prepared. I suspect there may even be a few of the old Premier clubs struggling to put 3 competitive teams on the paddock throughout 2018.
    2. Not sure how you can make your second point as Contracted players have not even been assigned clubs yet. So, pray tell how you have come to this conclusion?
    3. I love this question about Promotion/Relegation. Say there were 1 or 2 clubs to be promoted/relegated each year. On which team is the decision made? is it fair to "Third Grade" in a club where Premiergrade finish last, yet 3rd grade win their respective flag, for 3rd garde to be relegated? Our belief was that if 1 or 2 entire clubs were relegated from one season to the next, it would decimate the club. Our belief was that if clubs get to play each season for their destiny in the finals, a better outcome would be achieved.
    4.Allowing clubs to have multiple teams in the same grade - again, since I have only seen fixtures for Div 1, you must be way ahead of me and therefore, would appreciate which clubs and which teams for 2018 do you refer to?
    5.Hmmm, again, please enlighten me which teams and grades loaded their teams for finals in 2017? And perhaps tell me who will do that in 2018?
    6.Not sure about your statement regarding Wanneroo juniors. Very happy to take you point on board and suggest you PM me with your details and I will try and find answers for you.
    7.Sadly Poaching Players is a terrible blight on our competition and an area where we wish we had the answer. I have personally spoken to club presidents when factual evidence has been provided and we have a code of conduct in place. However, we are unable to create a policy with teeth. Should all clubs sign up to a charter ( you need to understand we are only put in place to run the competition by the clubs) I doubt we'll ever be able to cleanse our comp of poaching. Clubs are entities unto themselves, they raise money, they have their own constitutions and policies, they select their own players, coaches and build their own culture. RWA cannot go to any club and enforce a sanction that has not been agreed by all clubs. So, if you are able to get all clubs to agree to an anti-poaching policy just as all clubs have agreed to zero tolerance on alcohol brought to home clubs, you will be a hero.
    8.Once again, with respect to older players, we will do whatever the community clubs instruct us to do. I am not sure we as the Union can encourage older players to stay in the game, but if you have any suggestions, ideas, please, please let's have them.
    9.Regarding player payments - we have repeatedly requested at forums and in writing that clubs DO NOT PAY PLAYERS OR COACHES. Like the Poaching answer above, we cannot legally stop clubs paying players.

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  2. #347
    Player lou's Avatar
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    with regards to number 7 club poaching : I can only refer to my own experience as a parent, my son has moved form one club to another club - he was not poached, but preferred the camaraderie of the second club, so not poaching, but a better cultural fit. I know of other players who have moved for the same reason. It's not always a negative thing to move, and players have to be comfortable playing with their mates (often) and for their club.
    If one club can offer something to a player then I think they should be free to make the offer. I don't see anything wrong with it, and if a club wants to hang on to its players, then it needs to lift its game (so to speak)

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  3. #348
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    9.Regarding player payments - we have repeatedly requested at forums and in writing that clubs DO NOT PAY PLAYERS OR COACHES. Like the Poaching answer above, we cannot legally stop clubs paying players.
    Sadly Poaching Players is a terrible blight on our competition
    Sorry Hansie but the powers that be must be living in a dream world if they think that clubs are not going to pay players. You can ask all you want but it won`t happen all the while the monied clubs stoop to the lowest levels to get success and that includes letting other clubs bring their young stars through and then pouncing without doing any work of their own.
    Well monied clubs with no scruples have been doing it for all the years that I have been involved in rugby in WA - some 30 years. I can give you plenty of examples of players coming to join one club, having their air fares paid, tools supplied, jobs organised only for another club walk in with an envelope and say `Come to us. There's more of that if you want it` Hansie, and I`m sure you are aware anyway, but Neddies have been one of the biggest `blights` on the system over the year.
    By the way, I have no problem with coaches being paid for the work they put in.

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  4. #349
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    wholetruth,I suggest you start naming names,seeing you can give plenty of examples

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  5. #350
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  6. #351
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    I think they need to look at revamping the whole comp and merge teams to mark a stronger better quality comp. they are on to something with the coastal cavaliers.

    Eg - WA Premier Rugby Comp

    1 - Cott/soaks
    2 - Nedlands/pally
    3 - Wests/Perth
    4 - Wanneroo/joondalup
    5 - Rocky/mandurah
    6 - UWA/Curtin
    7 - Kalamunda/Arks

    Maybe not those combos but you get the idea. They could share the home games between them.

    The clubs don’t necessarily have to merge, each club eg Wanneroo and joondalup would still have their own teams with say a first grade, reserve grade and social grade but the top players from each club would be drafted into the premier grade club.

    Probably too many politics and logistical issues to ever make it work but something to think about.

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  7. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha Handy View Post
    I think they need to look at revamping the whole comp and merge teams to mark a stronger better quality comp. they are on to something with the coastal cavaliers.

    Eg - WA Premier Rugby Comp

    1 - Cott/soaks
    2 - Nedlands/pally
    3 - Wests/Perth
    4 - Wanneroo/joondalup
    5 - Rocky/mandurah
    6 - UWA/Curtin
    7 - Kalamunda/Arks

    Maybe not those combos but you get the idea. They could share the home games between them.

    The clubs don’t necessarily have to merge, each club eg Wanneroo and joondalup would still have their own teams with say a first grade, reserve grade and social grade but the top players from each club would be drafted into the premier grade club.

    Probably too many politics and logistical issues to ever make it work but something to think about.
    That's a lot like the feeder club idea I've been promoting for years. Keep the same clubs, they all play home and away fixtures for say 3rds to xths (Like how I assume the competition's going to grow) and then Premier rugby is regional representative teams based upon a (as reasonably as you can make it) distribution of players for something like North South East West (maybe you could add Inner North and Inner South to increase the number of teams) Clubs from each region make their best players available for the reps side.

    It always works well at a national championships medal, where the best players in the state seem to be able to come together and play decent rugby for the state side, putting aside club rivalries etc, why not look at running it a tier lower than that?

    THat being said, you'd need to get everyone to agree to it, and that seems to be the problem with everything in community sport.

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  8. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIGS20 View Post
    That's a lot like the feeder club idea I've been promoting for years. Keep the same clubs, they all play home and away fixtures for say 3rds to xths (Like how I assume the competition's going to grow) and then Premier rugby is regional representative teams based upon a (as reasonably as you can make it) distribution of players for something like North South East West (maybe you could add Inner North and Inner South to increase the number of teams) Clubs from each region make their best players available for the reps side.

    It always works well at a national championships medal, where the best players in the state seem to be able to come together and play decent rugby for the state side, putting aside club rivalries etc, why not look at running it a tier lower than that?

    THat being said, you'd need to get everyone to agree to it, and that seems to be the problem with everything in community sport.
    They did something similar in Victoria where they played it after June. Was canned after one season as it was a logistical nightmare for training, teams missed out on bar intake due to not having first grade around for a few months and the quality wasn't much better.

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  9. #354
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    [QUOTE=Hansie;452984]Zed

    Good points so let me try and answer them as best I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansie View Post
    1. Never have RWA insisted on any clubs having grades 1 -3. Those that showed intent were then subject to some pretty strict due diligence which has led to the Coastal Cavaliers being put in place to accommodate the ambitions of players in Mandurah and Rocky. Curtin sadly withdrew from this Division 1 competition because they did lack the numbers, Southern lions and ARKS the only other 2 clubs have provided evidence they can field sufficient players for 3 teams. Competitive is another aspect and from our evaluation, it would be a bit premature to believe every Premierclub will inflict heavy losses on every newby club. Personally I do believe many of the old Premier clubs will in fact suffer a loss here and there. However, all newby clubs have made it clear they do expect some big losses and as such are prepared. I suspect there may even be a few of the old Premier clubs struggling to put 3 competitive teams on the paddock throughout 2018.
    I like the Coastal Cavaliers format, it's a great idea, but it should have been implemented years ago. Clubs like Wanneroo and Rockingham have always struggled to field competitive teams in grades 1, 2 and 3. Typically towards the end of the season their lower grade teams are getting thumped by 70/80 points, not good for either team. Players end up playing 2 -
    3 games. Forfeits can occur. It's abundantly clear that these smaller clubs will always struggle to field 3 strong teams. This should have been addressed by RWA long ago.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hansie View Post

    2. Not sure how you can make your second point as Contracted players have not even been assigned clubs yet. So, pray tell how you have come to this conclusion?
    I'm not talking about 2018, I'm talking about previous seasons. Nedlands getting 3 or 4 players yet someone like Rockingham gets not one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansie View Post
    3. I love this question about Promotion/Relegation. Say there were 1 or 2 clubs to be promoted/relegated each year. On which team is the decision made? is it fair to "Third Grade" in a club where Premiergrade finish last, yet 3rd grade win their respective flag, for 3rd garde to be relegated? Our belief was that if 1 or 2 entire clubs were relegated from one season to the next, it would decimate the club. Our belief was that if clubs get to play each season for their destiny in the finals, a better outcome would be achieved.

    A promotion/relegation system is complex, but if well implemented can be very successful and encourages competition. Anyone that has played in the UK knows how well it can work. A club shouldn't be relegated, but a team within a club can be. So Uni whose 4th grade won for 10+ years on the trot would have been promoted to 3rd grade. It's non-nonsensical having your 4th grade stacked full of ex 1st graders and a ex-Wallaby, beating teams by 60/70 points week in week out. It's not good for rugby in this state. I have no doubt they would have given their prems side a run for the their money. You cannot have teams putting this amount of points on other teams year in year out. It's non-competitive and not good for rugby. Everyone loses. Did RWA ever approach Uni about this? Perhaps a memo sent out to all clubs "suggesting" they don't play top level players in the lower grades would have been an idea?

    Obviously moving teams up and down comes with it's own set of problems, it might mean Uni would have had 2 3rd grade sides, some teams would be playing away whilst other teams are at home. Not ideal, but it works in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansie View Post
    4.Allowing clubs to have multiple teams in the same grade - again, since I have only seen fixtures for Div 1, you must be way ahead of me and therefore, would appreciate which clubs and which teams for 2018 do you refer to?
    I'm talking about previous seasons. I'd imagine some smaller clubs feeling quite embittered about this, struggling to get a team on the pitch and the club they're playing has 2 teams in the same grade with a plethora of reserves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hansie View Post
    5.Hmmm, again, please enlighten me which teams and grades loaded their teams for finals in 2017? And perhaps tell me who will do that in 2018?
    It's been going on for years. Probably nothing RWA can do about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansie View Post
    6.Not sure about your statement regarding Wanneroo juniors. Very happy to take you point on board and suggest you PM me with your details and I will try and find answers for you.
    I meant junior club as in districts or not one of the bigger clubs. Years ago Wanneroo was dumped into a district league which was a complete failure. Curtin remained strong, but Murdoch pretty much folded and the league was a joke. RWA did nothing to address this, just allowed the comp to bimble along. Wanneroo were desperate to get out and RWA made it as difficult as possible for us to leave. Our promotion game against ARKS was designed in such a way we were never going to get promoted. we had to beat them in all 3 grades basically. Which obviously didn't happen. We didn't even have 3 teams. Why not allow us to field a reserves and 3rd grade and slowly build from there? Have RWA done enough to help struggling clubs? What's going to happen if Wanneroo are getting thrashed in reserves and 3rd grade, are RWA going to do anything about that? Or is it too bad so sad? I suppose you could shrug your shoulders and claim it's the clubs problem. But it's not. As I said previously RWA is responsible for administering rugby in WA and that includes ensuring the sport is in a healthy state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansie View Post
    7.Sadly Poaching Players is a terrible blight on our competition and an area where we wish we had the answer. I have personally spoken to club presidents when factual evidence has been provided and we have a code of conduct in place. However, we are unable to create a policy with teeth. Should all clubs sign up to a charter ( you need to understand we are only put in place to run the competition by the clubs) I doubt we'll ever be able to cleanse our comp of poaching. Clubs are entities unto themselves, they raise money, they have their own constitutions and policies, they select their own players, coaches and build their own culture. RWA cannot go to any club and enforce a sanction that has not been agreed by all clubs. So, if you are able to get all clubs to agree to an anti-poaching policy just as all clubs have agreed to zero tolerance on alcohol brought to home clubs, you will be a hero.
    I agree. Again probably not RWA's responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansie View Post
    8.Once again, with respect to older players, we will do whatever the community clubs instruct us to do. I am not sure we as the Union can encourage older players to stay in the game, but if you have any suggestions, ideas, please, please let's have them.
    An over 35s or over 40s comp promoted by RWA as a social league i.e if you played professionally and have just turned 36, you're not welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansie View Post
    9.Regarding player payments - we have repeatedly requested at forums and in writing that clubs DO NOT PAY PLAYERS OR COACHES. Like the Poaching answer above, we cannot legally stop clubs paying players.
    Yup. My gripes aren't all directed at RWA, a lot of the issues with rugby in this state have arisen because of the actions or inactions of clubs in this state and that includes Wanneroo.

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    Last edited by zed; 13-03-18 at 08:49.

  10. #355
    Champion Bakkies's Avatar
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    A few years back the IRFU conducted a review in to Irish Community Rugby where club hopping and player payments came under the microscope. Players that club hopped regularly will be under the microscope particularly if it wasn't from a junior club to a senior 2A then up the leagues.

    In regards to player payments all clubs will have to submit audited accounts to the IRFU. Clubs that pay under the table will get caught out eventually.

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  11. #356
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    Cheers for taking the time to read and reply.

    There were some mistakes made in the past, you have covered some of them big time. Personally I also think some of the stronger clubs including Neddies, focussed exclusively on club success almost at any cost to the detriment of the whole competition. Ultimately, whilst these clubs were permitted to push the boundaries, it has not been good for our comp. I have told many people including those at Neddies that whilst competing in 34 consecutive finals in Premiergrade is a wonderful achievement for the club, it has not been good for the community. It means for the past 34 years all other clubs have competed for 3 remaining positions.

    One can argue - that it is best for all clubs to raise their levels than have Neddies drop theirs. When circumstances favour one over another, this doesn't really wash. Ours is predominantly an amateur competition and I'd really like the Clubs to give RWA more teeth to create a fairer comp. and level the playing field.

    Within Neddies I advocated pushing as hard to excel as much as absolutely possible without really trying to learn and understand the obstacles other clubs encountered.

    I have to say, looking in from the outside, so many clubs have hurdles to clear that the stronger clubs have absolutely little understanding of. No...I am not born again, nor have I seen the light, just been privy to more issues and I will always be a Neddies supporter, but I'd like to try and work out a way where off field, all clubs work together, but on field we create some fierce tribalism.

    I like the idea of an over 35's comp. and we have talked about that, as we get through this season, we'll tweak things to try and accommodate these guys. My personal motivation from experience is that - it is the over 35's that financially contribute to a club's success. Prems and Colts tend to cost $$$ 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and women's earn $$$.

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  12. #357
    Immortal GIGS20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bakkies View Post
    They did something similar in Victoria where they played it after June. Was canned after one season as it was a logistical nightmare for training, teams missed out on bar intake due to not having first grade around for a few months and the quality wasn't much better.
    That's actually the first response I've had that was founded in an actual trial and didn't include "nobody will agree to this" Thanks Bakkies. I think I might stop banging on about the idea then.

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  13. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hansie View Post
    Zed

    C

    I like the idea of an over 35's comp. and we have talked about that, as we get through this season, we'll tweak things to try and accommodate these guys. My personal motivation from experience is that - it is the over 35's that financially contribute to a club's success. Prems and Colts tend to cost $$$ 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and women's earn $$$.
    I think this is easier than you think. My thoughts off my head:

    1. Team only plays with the rest of the club. If the club they are playing doesn't have a over 35's then there is no game. You don't send your social over 35's to Mandurah when the rest of the club is in Joondalup ... it killed 5th grade

    2. Modify the rules. Maybe uncontested scrums and no lifting ... gets the issue of props out of the way.

    3. Keep it to over 40's so that 4th grade is hopefully not affected too much.

    4. Play before colts so that the socials get to watch the big games which is what they want. Many potential players in 5th won't play because it was the same time as 5ths.

    I think if you went to the clubs this could be a fast and easy win for "growing the game" and give the clubs a much needed boost.

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  14. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loose Cannon View Post
    I think this is easier than you think. My thoughts off my head:

    1. Team only plays with the rest of the club. If the club they are playing doesn't have a over 35's then there is no game. You don't send your social over 35's to Mandurah when the rest of the club is in Joondalup ... it killed 5th grade

    2. Modify the rules. Maybe uncontested scrums and no lifting ... gets the issue of props out of the way.

    3. Keep it to over 40's so that 4th grade is hopefully not affected too much.

    4. Play before colts so that the socials get to watch the big games which is what they want. Many potential players in 5th won't play because it was the same time as 5ths.

    I think if you went to the clubs this could be a fast and easy win for "growing the game" and give the clubs a much needed boost.
    Is that not the golden oldies? Or is the oldies organised elsewhere?

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  15. #360
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    Over 40s tens before colts, followed by beers. Maybe preceded by them too. I'll be in the purple shorts.

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