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Thread: Australia and England 3rd test

  1. #61
    Champion andrewg's Avatar
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    Follow-up post on G&GR re Will Skelton as a Test Lock.

    My comments regarding Will Skelton's ongoing poor performances as a Test level Lock have drawn a few comments.

    Although we see glimpses of Skelton's potential in Super Rugby, he has yet to prove himself as a regular and reliable Lock for the Wallabies. Accordingly, he is taking the place of players who have shown a greater desire to develop the fitness and necessary skill set.

    Nothing shows this situation more than a comparison of his performance at various levels over the past 2 years.

    My hope is that this information will stimulate some worthwhile discussion.


    Will Skelton – Over the past 2 years

    Game Time – Ruck Involvements – TOW - Discipline

    Name:  2016-06-28_16-06-03_1.jpg
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    1. All stats are presented as averages per 80 minutes in order to allow for different game time. This provides a better indication of work rate - especially when comparing with others.
    2. Averaging less game time in 2016 (Fitness or Plan?)
    3. Reduced involvement in Defensive Rucks in Test rugby.
    4. Nil Turn Overs Won in Test Rugby.
    5. Penalised significantly more in Test rugby (Trying to “impose” himself upon the game?)


    Tackling – Ball Carries – Line Out

    Name:  2016-06-28_15-50-35_2.jpg
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    1. Tackles more in Test rugby
    2. Main RWC game against Uruguay (10 mins against Fiji)
    3. More carries but less m gained in 2016.
    4. Reduced Defenders Beaten and Off Loads in 2016.
    5. Limited Line Out impact in Test Rugby.



    Conclusions:

    1. Skelton is not as fit in 2016 as he was in 2015.
    2. Skelton is struggling to have the same impact in test Rugby as he does in Super Rugby.
    3. Skelton has minimal impact in Defensive Rucks in Test rugby with no regular Turn Overs Won. His role is mainly supporting the Wallabies ball carriers.
    4. Skelton is rarely used as a Line Out Option in test rugby.



    Note: I have no data for effectiveness in Mauls and Scrums.

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  2. #62
    Legend Contributor Alison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SinBin View Post
    Well they can sure teach us a thing or two about player/fan engagement!! (click on "watch on YouTube")


    Brilliant!!

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  3. #63
    Champion andrewg's Avatar
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    Adam Coleman AND Dane Haylett-Petty in FoxSports Test Team of the Week.


    Congratulations Dane and ADAM (on debut) getting this level of recognition.
    In very good company.

    http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/th...f9f364a2323069

    1: Mako Vunipola (England)
    2: Dane Coles (New Zealand)
    3: Dan Cole (England)
    4: Pieter-Steph du Toit (South Africa)

    5: Adam Coleman (Australia)
    A great debut from the Force lock, who replaced the injured Rob Simmons at halftime.
    Coleman made six tackles without a miss, secured three lineout wins and had six runs for 34 metres that included one tackle bust, one offload and a memorable linebreak with him hitting a hole close to the ruck at speed.

    6: Loann Goujon (France)
    7: Sam Cane (New Zealand)
    8: Billy Vunipola (England)
    9: Baptiste Serin (France)
    10: Beauden Barrett (New Zealand)

    11: Dane Haylett-Petty (Australia)
    Perhaps the brightest spot of the Wallabies’ whitewash was the emergence of Haylett-Petty and his composed and impactful play on the wing.
    In the third Test, Haylett-Petty made a team-high three linebreaks, to go with 11 runs for 76 metres and his first career try.
    Over the series he made 298 metres and 16 tackle busts — trailing only Israel Folau (411m and 18 tackle busts).

    12: Matt Toomua (Australia)
    13: George Moala (New Zealand)
    14: Ben Smith (New Zealand)
    15: Israel Dagg (New Zealand)

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  4. #64
    Legend Contributor Alison's Avatar
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    Let's hope Adam soon becomes the first choice lock for the Wallabies!!

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  5. #65
    Champion Ralto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alison View Post
    Let's hope Adam soon becomes the first choice lock for the Wallabies!!
    No, someone will say everytime he plays for the Wallabys we lose.

    .......Skelton is not as fit in 2016 as he was in 2015.??? Now that does take some work - check his pulse

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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewg View Post
    11: Dane Haylett-Petty (Australia)
    12: Matt Toomua (Australia)
    13: George Moala (New Zealand)
    14: Ben Smith (New Zealand)
    15: Israel Dagg (New Zealand)
    Interesting that both wingers in the team of the week are full-backs!

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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewg View Post
    Follow-up post on G&GR re Will Skelton as a Test Lock.

    My comments regarding Will Skelton's ongoing poor performances as a Test level Lock have drawn a few comments.

    Although we see glimpses of Skelton's potential in Super Rugby, he has yet to prove himself as a regular and reliable Lock for the Wallabies. Accordingly, he is taking the place of players who have shown a greater desire to develop the fitness and necessary skill set.

    Nothing shows this situation more than a comparison of his performance at various levels over the past 2 years.

    My hope is that this information will stimulate some worthwhile discussion.


    Will Skelton – Over the past 2 years

    Game Time – Ruck Involvements – TOW - Discipline

    Name:  2016-06-28_16-06-03_1.jpg
Views: 407
Size:  133.0 KB

    1. All stats are presented as averages per 80 minutes in order to allow for different game time. This provides a better indication of work rate - especially when comparing with others.
    2. Averaging less game time in 2016 (Fitness or Plan?)
    3. Reduced involvement in Defensive Rucks in Test rugby.
    4. Nil Turn Overs Won in Test Rugby.
    5. Penalised significantly more in Test rugby (Trying to “impose” himself upon the game?)


    Tackling – Ball Carries – Line Out

    Name:  2016-06-28_15-50-35_2.jpg
Views: 410
Size:  107.4 KB

    1. Tackles more in Test rugby
    2. Main RWC game against Uruguay (10 mins against Fiji)
    3. More carries but less m gained in 2016.
    4. Reduced Defenders Beaten and Off Loads in 2016.
    5. Limited Line Out impact in Test Rugby.



    Conclusions:

    1. Skelton is not as fit in 2016 as he was in 2015.
    2. Skelton is struggling to have the same impact in test Rugby as he does in Super Rugby.
    3. Skelton has minimal impact in Defensive Rucks in Test rugby with no regular Turn Overs Won. His role is mainly supporting the Wallabies ball carriers.
    4. Skelton is rarely used as a Line Out Option in test rugby.



    Note: I have no data for effectiveness in Mauls and Scrums.
    Once again you work hard on your stats but I think you are unfairly bagging Skeltons role in the team. He was not in the team to win ruck turnovers or win lineouts or score 3 tries. Skeltons role was to add a physical presence to our forwards through scrummaging, counter mauling, sucking in defenders and creating offload opportunities at the gain line. Some of these things he did well others not so well but that is to be expected with the step up in pace of test rugby. Our scrum had been struggling but with Skelton and Kepu in there our tighthead side of the scrum was hugely improved, loosehead side was still a worry. Skelton attracts defenders when he carries. England had to regularly use 2 or 3 guys to stop Skelton and with his ability to free the ball quickly after the tackle, it opens up opportunities for other guys as there are less defenders left in the line. Also it kept Englands defenders honest because if they did not use enough guys to stop his runs then he would have been able to get his offloads going which would of caused England more trouble. Englands mauling game was less effective when faced with Skeltons size and strength getting through their maul to disrupt things.
    Skelton brings other things to a game of rugby that make a difference than what you are expecting of him. The pace of test rugby is higher than super rugby so therefore he needs to gametime to adjust. Coming into the 3rd test against guys who have had 2 previous games to adjust to the pace i thought he did well in the role he was given. If he was given more game time to adjust to the pace of the games his stats would have shown improvement and his penalties conceded would drop.
    Analyzing a guys performance is more than stats, its also about what role the player was asked to perform and i think the above post ive quoted has completely missed this basic point.

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  8. #68
    Immortal GIGS20's Avatar
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    OK, Kala, you have made a spirited defense of Skelton's performance, some of which I agree with, but much of it I don't.

    If you don't mind I'll leave the comment about the scrum, because I agree, the tighthead side was much stronger this week...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahard View Post
    Skelton attracts defenders when he carries. England had to regularly use 2 or 3 guys to stop Skelton and with his ability to free the ball quickly after the tackle, it opens up opportunities for other guys as there are less defenders left in the line.
    I'd like to know upon what are you basing this statement. How many linebreaks did the Wallabies make immediately after a Skelton carry? I'm pretty sure the number can be counted on one hand, so where is the effectiveness of his sucking in defenders? The only clear linebreak I can recall is Coleman being passed into a yawning gap by Foley, I'm pretty sure Skelton hadn't touched the ball in the leadup to that play (but am happy to be corrected on that)

    Now I'm not saying that Skelton wasn't attractign defenders, I'm simply saying that IF he did, it didn't gain us anything as a result. therefore losing the lineout and putting up with his lack of fitness was offset by, well nothing particularly effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahard View Post
    Also it kept Englands defenders honest because if they did not use enough guys to stop his runs then he would have been able to get his offloads going which would of caused England more trouble.
    Again, if all of these English defenders were required to stop his running/offloading game, where was the benefit. If he needs two to stop him, the next phase should show significant gains, if he needs 3, there should be a line break, etc. There are only two possibilities I can think of whereby this wouldn't happen, The tackle is effected and Skelton takes an age to place the ball and the tackle is effected and the support is too slow to arrive (unlikely, because the ball would be turned over if there was no cleanout)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahard View Post
    Englands mauling game was less effective when faced with Skeltons size and strength getting through their maul to disrupt things.
    I thought England's mauling game was pretty good, at least the equal of the previous two games. I wouldn't think our defense of the maul was any better or worse.

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    C'mon the

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