What have you done for me lately.........

[GIGS20]

All I was suggesting was that the evidence you sought from whodunit in respect to his sweeping and generalised statement was there to be found, not by empirical example, but by examination and lived experience of RugbyWA's handling of club rugby over many years.

It was and is to be found within the clubs themselves and in the unilateral decision making process adopted by RugbyWA and rammed through by it. The system of votes allocated at council meetings is just one aspect of how the system has been manipulated to entrench the over-riding control of the executive and give them free reign to screw over who ever they wish.

To ask for "evidence" for what is an ingrained and institutional problem as if it was as straight forward as providing examples, appeared to me, with respect, to be simplistic.

Thanks for your response Fulv,

I guess my offence was as a reslut of feeling that your reply was off hand and dismissive. Now that you've provided the longhand I can see where you were going with it.

For the record, I would have counted your description of the entrenched system as some of the "evidence" I sought. I guess Ex's other question about how many of the clubs have been visited by elite coaches and players and how many have asked is still interesting to me. It would indicate whether the organisation is anti-club or possibly they're just inefficient and insular. I know the two aren't any different in effect, however the solution is far easier in the second instance (that being education and information) If they're honestly clueless rather than deliberately dismissive I would say it's closer to being right.

But again, this is a viewpoint from an interested outsider at the moment.

[brokendown gunfighter]

Exile,Fulvio would be chuffed at being labelled"middle age"
He,like me,is an old fart

[.X.]

Gunny - you and Fulvio are the nicest middle age men I know.

[GIGS20]

G Beard, at the risk of sounding like some of the people on here who are typically labelled trolls, which club?

(says GIGS hoping like hell it isn't Neddies or Cott)

Next question, is it different at other clubs

(Says GIGS hoping like hell it isn't)

final question, If the answer to question 2 is yes, why?

(Says GIGS hoping that the answers to the other two questions don't set up another "Neddies and Cott get everything from the Force at the expense of the rest of the rugby world" argument)

It's not that I have any opinion on the argument, due to my well-documented lack of knowledge about the issues, but I've hear all the rants and I sincerely hope like hell it's all from disgruntles wankers who have a fictional axe to grind...the reason I hope that is because if what they say is true, our game is pretty f@$&ed in this state and the Force MAY AS WELL move to Penriff.

[G_Beard]

Gigs, at Baysie with the juniors
And yes we have 1 or 2 Force and RugbyWA knockers there as well, and they definitely fall into the same basket as the rest of the 'it's not fair, they do nothing for us' brigade.

But I figure, if you want help and resource, extend yourself, get in front and offer what you can, bring numbers and do some heavy lifting to be included, make it work and gain momentum.

Standing on the sideline bitching and complaining will get you excluded quicker that a sharp slapping in my book, and good riddance.

I know good things are happening at Paly, with Force players helping out at training, and at West Scarborough.
But all in the same age group of the juniors, as those coaches are hugely involved at their clubs, within local rugby, and they have boys in those age groups, and as such are making it happen. To add to that, those gents are top shelf!

[GIGS20]

OK, so reading between the lines...because I have to

RugbyWA aren't really all that proactive in getting the elite players out to the clubs
but neither are they particularly resistant, they will generally respond positively to a request if it is possible

There are a couple of Force players who have a reason to be linked with a club (I read that as Kids playing for them) who do a great job
but there is no centralised or organised push from the organisation to force that

Is that right?

[Buddha Handy]

I don't think there is really that much moaning about Force Players helping out at clubs (apart from maybe District clubs). I think the main gripes with RugbyWA over the years would be more to do with:

1) Allocation of Force Players
2) Not doing anything to stop poaching of players
3) Structure of competitions (eg changing colts age groups, 3rd and 4th grade comps have been a shambles the past few years)
4) Treatment of some clubs such as Rockingham
5) Allowing new teams to form that compete with other existing clubs

Just some possible gripes I have heard off the top of my head

[G_Beard]

I cannot make any comment of whether your conclusion is right or not as a whole.
In my examples there was a conversation had with the players asking me how it was all going with the juniors and what nights did they train, etc and it's been on more than one occasion when players have pitched up unannounced and in civvies to a training or game day.

I'd also add people's gripes would be that they didn't get what they wanted and/or their kids/nephews didn't make the cut.
Which boils down to an ego battle, and I've never seen the person who came off second best in one of those, come away raving about what a good person/organisation the other is.

[Petalz]

The Elephant in the 'room' here is the inherent pissing contest between all the clubs.
From an outside perspective reading posts in the local rugby sections, it seems like each clubbie hates anyone and everyone from another club.

Also seems that new ideas within clubs get shot down by the old heads/club cancers (pick your poison because they're generally one and the same - being that they feel over-privileged and are over-entitled whiny pricks who need to wash the sand out).
This inevitably results in a new generation of people leaving due to a massive sense of disillusionment because the loudest ones in these situations always seem to have the staying power.

OR the cancers are the ones who love to complain but are loath to actually try and fix things - as it's more fulfilling to slowly tear a club apart behind a keyboard or by very vocally and at every opportunity whining about anything and everything that they remotely disagree with. Unfortunately it is inevitable that every club has people who would fit into either category - and some that are both.


Would the clubs themselves be able to have a bigger voice if they adopted a co-op type model? this would also unfortunately for those described above require them to act professional - at least until the starting whistle goes; & maybe try to install basic business modelling across the entire system? or with added buy in from other clubs on a global model; find ways to improve the existing ones?

This would also result in a united front when trying to grow the game in WA. Plus an environment where the individuals I've described above will be ultimately forced out or forced to change.

It all comes down to "if you cant change the people, change the people" but the change has to start somewhere.

[GIGS20]

Hey Petalz,

As another outsider I really sit the fence on the club rivalry question. I have been a part of a very successful regional sporting competition that fully bought into the club rivalry thing (it was volleyball in my youth) the teams hated each other for 90% of the season, only coming together for reps tryouts.....
Interestingly, each of the teams were hugely supportive of the reps teams and justifiably proud of the team members who made each squad. Most of us turned up to watch the reps games and cheered the good plays made by anybody on the squad, regardless of the fact that the next Tuesday night were were going to attempt to beat shit out of them in a club game.

so club rivalry is good, however animosity towards the representative players who don't come from your club but win a reps spot is a symbol that it's something else.

I left Rocky quite a while ago, but the Rocky v Pirates thing was really strong when MiniGIGS stopped playing and for many in the club it was turning the corner into the wrong kind of rivalry....can't comment upon whether that has changed and everything I do know is from one side of the fence, so I only use it as an example.

I would think that transparency of selection and a genuine buy-in from the players that the best team is selected each year is crucial to making that work though....I don't hear that, even on this website.

[Petalz]

G'day GIGS,

I hear you, and have seen it done really well in Baseball and softball as well; as a player, committee member and parent (thank Christ the early morning weekend starts are over).
Just seems that the hate and comments dished out here is much more visceral than I have seen anywhere else, and this support would never happen within an individual club - let alone across the board or heaven forbid towards another club
Don't get me wrong, club rivalry is fantastic and should always be there, but for fucks sake the committee members are all adults, they should all be able to act their age and temporarily put rivalries aside and work collaboratively with their own club and other clubs to fix what's wrong across the board. the same or similar problems would be present in every club in WA. not just premier grade ones.

I pointed out the co-op model because it works. Maybe a better analogy to get my point across would have been "union strong" (pardon the union pun) where each union (so club) has it's own members with it's own specific interests, but they are capable of working together to get a common goal. Be it a baby not sent back to Naru or in the case of this thread seems to be more support from RWA (depending on which post you read [and presumably which category from the three I described above the poster falls into]).

if the clubs were able to co-exist - which seems impossible based on these threads - they would be able to present a unified argument in regards to their grievances with the governing body and the argument would be more compelling - also it gives a platform to go over RWA if they collectively feel that the issues are not getting better within the time-frame agreed upon by all parties.


Also they might get more credibility if they went there with some solutions as opposed to just pissing and moaning about it all.
This one comes from my professional experience though - if someone comes to me with just a problem they are politely but firmly sent away, but if it's a problem with "I think this might fix it..." then I'm all ears to collaborate towards a solution. Have found this gets buy in from those impacted and they are more invested in the solution.

[Emu]

Forgive my ignorance but are the Force players allocated out by the Force and each club gets roughly the same numbers.
This occurs by the Rebels for Dewar Shield and Brumbies for John I Dent Cup. As Easts are the basket case they seem to get more players on the way up (more likely to play JID) and maybe a name player like Stephen Moore

Rebels Example Club Ambassadors
Ben Meehan – Box Hill
Pat Leafa- Box Hill
Sefa Naivalu – Box Hill
Jamie Hagan – Box Hill
Tom English – Melbourne University
Dom Shipperley – Melbourne University
Sam Jefferies – Melbourne University
Jonah Placid – Melbourne University
Rob Leota – Melbourne University
Nic Stirzaker – Endeavour Hills
Jack Debrezceni – Endeavour Hills
Sean McMahon – Endeavour Hills
Siliva Siliva – Endeavour Hills
Toby Smith – Endeavour Hills
Dan Hawkins – Powerhouse
Ryan Cocker – Powerhouse
Harley Fox – Powerhouse
Adam Thomson – Powerhouse
Scott Fuglistaller – Moorabbin
Luke Jones – Moorabbin
Tamati Ellison – Moorabbin
Tim Metcher – Moorabbin
Laurie Weeks – Southern Districts
Mitch Inman – Southern Districts
Mike Harris – Southern Districts
Sione Tuipulotu – Southern Districts
Jordy Reid- Melbourne Unicorns
Mick Snowden – Melbourne Unicorns
Reece Hodge – Melbourne Unicorns
Cam Crawford – Melbourne Unicorns
Cullum Retallick – Footscray
Lopeti Timani – Footscray
Cruz Ah Nau – Footscray
Colby Faingaa – Footscray
Paul Asquith – Harlequins
Tom Moloney – Harlequins
Steve Cummins – Harlequins
James Hanson – Harlequins

Brumbies JID allocations:

VIKINGS:
Nigel Ah Wong
Jarrad Butler
Christian Lealiifano
Scott Sio
Joe Powell

UNI-NORTHS:
Allan Alaalatoa
Ben Alexander
Michael Dowsett
David Pocock
Joe Tomane

ROYALS:
Albert Anae
Sam Carter
Tom Staniforth
Lausii Taliauli
Matt Toomua

GUNGAHLIN:
Rory Arnold
James Dargaville
Josh Mann-Rea
Henry Speight
Ita Vaea

WESTS:
Tomas Cubelli
Scott Fardy
Aidan Toua
Nic Jooste

QUEANBEYAN:
Robbie Coleman
Tevita Kuridrani
Leslie Leulua'iali'i-Makin
Andrew Smith
Michael Wells

EASTS:
Blake Enever
Stephen Moore
Jordan Smiler
Ruan Smith
Robbie Abel

One of the Jake White legacy that lingers is banning Brumby players from Shute Shield and playing locally. He wanted a stronger local comp and White's complaint was that he lost the players on Thu lunch so they could train with their other team Thurs Night to return Sun late. Not sure when and where the post game rehab got done. Plus there was a mid week rest day.

Surely the Force players are allocated to Pindan like Brumby and Rebel's.

[fulvio sammut]

Emu, I saw what you did there.

[shasta]

Gunny - you and Fulvio are the nicest middle age men I know.

Ahem!

For the record; I was thinking exactly what Gunny wrotr.

[fulvio sammut]

Ageist bastards!!!