Who owns their own clubrooms?

[wholetruth]

Here's something for discussion
I have spent many, too many, seasons watching club rugby in Perth and always wondered who actually owns their own clubrooms.
Not many I would think which, ultimately, could leave some clubs in deep mire if their council decided to have a change of mind over use of premises or there is a failure to come up with the rent.
This is how I think they stand
Premier clubs:
Associates - Council owned I think
Cottesloe - Council owned and always having problems with their "council house"
Kalamunda - Council owned I think but seem pretty comfortable as they were allowed to extend
Nedlands - Presumably their own after their rebuild but still have neighbour problems.
Palmyra - Great facility but Council owned
Perth Bayswater - Council built extensions I think but comfortable with the Council
Rockingham - Like Palymra - Great facility but Council owned
University - UWA owned and bloody awful!
Wanneroo - Built and owned by the club and extending at their own cost
Wests - Must be a Council deal after the move
Champiosnhip clubs;
ARKS - Not sure but guessing Council owned
Bunbury - Sorry Guys haven't been there since playing manyyears ago - at several locations. (Didn't matter where you were always a good weekend anyway)
Curtin - University owned.
Joondalup - Another shared facility. Council owned
Mandurah - Nice facility. Council owned
Southern Lions. Again to be honest have not been to the current clubrooms.
Swans. Sorry, never been there

[Hansie]

In most cases the councils own the clubrooms, clubs lease them for anywhere between 3 and 25 years. However, there is a clause in every agreement that allows a council to sack the club and take back all buildings if they can show reason within the contract to do so.

[wholetruth]

Is that the case with Nedlands even though they just built? Likewise Wanneroo?

[fulvio sammut]

No club owns its own clubrooms.

The university clubs have their rooms/grounds supplied by the Universities and the others are Council owned.

The strength and duration of their tenure varies from club to club.

The clubs that owe council the most money by way of Council loans to fund their facilities are the most secure, as Councils want those loans repaid, even though Council owns the premises.

In most cases though, Councils would have difficulties politically in moving a club out if the club has met its financial obligations.

Why do clubs do it? Because how else would they secure access to several hectares of prime property (eg Soaks, Paly and Nedlands) without paying the millions they don't have.
Councils fund the cost of construction and fit out, more or less to the clubs specifications, by borrowing at low rates from the State Government, and on lend, usually just the cost of fit out, to the clubs. As well as meeting the loan repayments for their part of the borrowings, clubs also additionally pay a low rental.

The clubs whose facilities are not up to standard haven't yet discovered how it all works, or lack courage or vision, or operate within the jurisdiction of a council that doesn't meet its community responsibilities.

[wholetruth]

Thanks for the Hansie.
The clubs that owe council the most money by way of Council loans to fund their facilities are the most securek
That is interesting. So, it''s better for a club to be in debt to its landlord?
I'm not so sure about that. Wouldn't they want a good tenant?
I understand all you have said and the political problems of it but what happens if/when council decides: "Gee that's prime land for sub-dividing - we could make a quick million or so out of this".
Then clubs who have not built-own their clubs have no leg to stand on realistically do they.
I think Wanneroo actually DO own their club. They just don't own the land it sits on. That is State Land I think.
Same with Nedlands?

[fulvio sammut]

Anything which is a permanent structure on land, such as buildings, are a fixture, and become part of the land. Wanneroo don't own their clubrooms, even though they may have paid every last cent to build them, they belong to the council. Thus, Wanneroo are in reality in a worse position than those clubs that still owe money to Council for their building, in that sense at least.

Council can tell them to go at the end of the lease, and they will have to leave the fully paid for building behind, with no compensation.

The other clubs can argue, legally, that they don't have to repay the borrowings if they can't use the facility, as that was the purpose of the borrowing, and that purpose has been frustrated by Council.

[Pacman]

but what happens if/when council decides: "Gee that's prime land for sub-dividing - we could make a quick million or so out of this".
Then clubs who have not built-own their clubs have no leg to stand on realistically do they.

Build a new 'Community Sporting Complex' just out of town on swamp land or full rubbist tip and everybody's happy

[fulvio sammut]

Well, that's what happened at Tompkins Park, Pacman.

It was a terrible site for a rubbish tip, but a fantastic one for clubrooms.

[Pacman]

Agreed, Tompkins would've been a terrible site for a tip....I do like their new club rooms now over their old ones in Palmyra.

ARKS are playing on a rubbish tip also. Lions, Rocky n Pirates I think are playing on re-claimed Swamp land aren't they?

[wholetruth]

Perhaps the Dogs should sell their rooms back to the council and become a council owned club. Or is that too close to home ie. Cottesloe or Soaks? Or dare I say, what is going to happen at Super Rugby level with the Rebels soon to be owned by the ARU.

[Ecky]

Perhaps the Dogs should sell their rooms back to the council and become a council owned club. Or is that too close to home ie. Cottesloe or Soaks?

They won't be able to. Council owns the land and lets the club build stuff on it, both parties in the full knowledge that everything, including built assets, will revert to Council at lease end.

Out of interest, Barbagallo Raceway is in the same position. And the racing club has spent quite a deal of dosh in improving that land.

[chertubler]

Rocky built there old clubhouse and cleared and developed the second pitch but council built larkhill and said uni was to be developed on old ground ,old club is still there uni not going ahead and council will flog off land for housing

[theforceguy]

Bayswater owns the land and the clubhouse that is build on it and if I recall correctly they are the only club in Perth to do so

[fulvio sammut]

Forceguy, I have this bridge for sale ...

[Hansie]

Wholetruth, in short Nedlands Council could give NRUFC 30 days notice to vacate the building because of some indiscretion, misdemeanor or other non-compliance they can think of. Nedlands members paid for the new club rooms in full. This did include grants that were applied for and given by both State Govt. and Nedlands council did give $50K as a grant as well. There are no loans or borrowings outstanding against the buildings. Nedlands council have been very supportive and awesome to work with. By encouraging other community sports to use the facilities as well ( junior soccer, and tee ball ) NRUFC are hoping Council will continue to support them.