USADA says it will ban Lance Armstrong, strip 7 Tour titles

[LarryNJ]

It seems the hard core cycle fans and cancer survivors feel it's a witch hunt. Where as the casual or non fans feel he's guilty. Most polls I have seen are split almost 50/50. I'm in the he's guilty camp.

It just seems strange that a guy who has always been known as a great fighter. Decides to call it quits. Almost like pulling his bike over in the middle of a race and saying I'm done. It makes no sense. Except that he now doesn't need to testify which could have opened up all kinds of incriminating evidence. Which may result in lawsuits costing him millions. It also lets him stand behind the I never failed a drug test, which is simply not true. And it prevents the ex teammates from testifying.

Just another in a long line of cheating athletes who did anything for the big $$$. What is sad is how they hurt all the honest guys and girls who did it by the books but didn't make it big because of dishonesty in others.

[GIGS20]

I am really beginning to wonder how many are actually doing it the right way Larry.

I know nothing about cycling, so forgive any inaccuracies here, but there has been a fairly consistent trickle of stories about doping, that Schleck bloke a couple of months ago, his brother? A year or two, Armstrong etc. as a casual observer it seems as though cycling is dirtier than weightlifting.

My question, is this perception accurate, or is this a sport that is actually chasing down and finding the few cheats who are there? Are cyclists any worse than the remainder of world class athletes?

Also, is it fair to backdate drug testing under current rules and apply them to historical events when the substance wasn't banned? I find it particularly worrying since many convictions these days are for masking agents, not the actual gear. I assume most of these masking agents have other actions and can be prescribed for genuine medical reasons. If they aren't on a ban list I don't see how the accusation can assume they weren't prescribed to treat a cold!

[zed]

Cycling has been dirty for decades and is probably as bad as if not worse than Athletics.

I don't think his refusal to continue the fight to clear his name is necessarily an admission of guilt, but it does seem a strange decision considering this is the man that fought cancer came back and won 4 TDF titles. I would love to believe in his innocence and that it is in fact a witch hunt, but just google evidence against Lance Armstrong and then make up your own mind.

[sittingbison]

Lance knows USADA procedural rules, his own manager drafted them.
This move is solely designed to prevent Lance being confronted by the evidence, and protect him from perjury charges.
By definition in not arbitrating he is guilty of all instances of the charge letter, leading a team based doping system, supply and administering drugs, and conspiracy.
Of interest is his lawyers letter to USADA, paints a vastly different picture to the PR bull letter he posted.
This is actually a great day for cycling, the opportunity to truly start from scratch now the elephant in the corner is sighted and removed. Now to get rid of Fat Pat and Heins corrupt influence at UCI...
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[LarryNJ]

I am really beginning to wonder how many are actually doing it the right way Larry.

I know nothing about cycling, so forgive any inaccuracies here, but there has been a fairly consistent trickle of stories about doping, that Schleck bloke a couple of months ago, his brother? A year or two, Armstrong etc. as a casual observer it seems as though cycling is dirtier than weightlifting.

Yes that's the way I understand it too. Similar to baseball here in the 90's.

I don't think there's any doubt that he is guilty. I also believe they are on a witch hunt to prove a point, because he was so arrogant in his actions during their investigation.

As far as how many do it the right way? I have no idea. I'm almost to the point that I think they should make it all legal. When you think about it their job is to entertain us. If they are bigger, faster, and stronger is that a bad thing? If they want to kill themselves in the process so be it. Many singers have entertained us over the years high on drugs and we still bought their albums (showing my age ) and concert tickets. We laughed at comedians while they were strung out on coke like John Belushi and Richard Pryor. Why not let the athletes do a few drugs?

[sittingbison]

Never go along the "level playing field" path, it's a complete fallacy.

Some people respond much better to PEDS, they are called super responders. Others can actually perform worse. With blood vector doping like EPO,if you compare a natural 35% hematocrit athlete with a 45% one, put them both on EPO to raise them both to 50%, you can see the first has a clear advantage of a 43% improvement in O2 carrying ability to an 11% improvement.
Then you get the wealthy guys like Lance affording the best doctors like Ferrari, the best drugs and a systematic team program vs the pooer bloke from Fuckbuttistan sticking a needle in his arm the morning of a race.

Just don't go there, even as a joke. Because sure as eggs someone in rugby is going to get done
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[Sheikh]

Sorry sheikh, you are wrong on all counts.

Lance injunction was just thrown out of court by federal Judge Sparks (in Austin lol) who agreed USADA has jurisdiction. The WADA code (signed by UCI in 2004 to remain part of the Olympics) gives exactly that authourity to USADA through USAC and UCI to USOC then IOC. There is nothing unusual about it, it happens in every drug case. To suggest otherwise is complete and utter PR bull from Lance.

UCI, despite a few drunken ramblings from Fat Pat, has before and after Lances escapade in court agreed this is the case. They will comply with the USADA decision or they will be flung out of the Olympics, which would destroy them politically as the national federations scrambled and then financially as they lose $3.5m per annum in funding.

The ASO will look stupid if they refuse to comply, as they will lose public confidence and subsequently commercial backing.

As to the witch hunt, it sounds like a Lance broken record of PR spin. What witch hunt? USADA has in the past 5 years busted some 50 athletes including Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, Kelli White, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens...which of these tested positive? Lance has

And precisely which rules have USADA broken. The funniest thing is his own manager drafted the USADA rules . Would it be those ones? They have done everything above board to the letter. Again, Judge Sparks just thre Lance out of court. If there was the slightest thing wrong with USADA performance they would have lost.

Yes and no. The judge did not say there was nothign wrong with the USADA's case; in fact he said that there were significant holes, but that he could not rule on them and that they should be brought up by Armstrong and argued during the court case.

USADA can indeed find Armstring guilty and ban him for life, but only have a mandate to act retro-actively for up to 8 years. This means that at most they can request for the 2005 tour to be stripped, although they may be able to back-date this to the start of the investigation (2010) so the 2003 & 2004 tours may also go.

However, USADA have to go through WADA, who have previously stated that they disagree with the USADA case. This is down to two main areas: the timescale (see above), and the evidence.

WADA do not allow personal testimonies to be used in doping cases, with the exception of testimonies from doping control officials during the testing procedure. This allows the officials to identify irregularities in the testing, but even if they found vials of prohibited drugs in the athlete's room, that could not be used to ban an athlete, only to strengthen a case against the athlete if lab tests subsequently find anything. (Although there's nothing to stop the officials testing the athlete more often, if they believe the athlete to be suspicious.)

WADA set their rules up to ensure that athletes are found guilty by physical evidence (lab tests) rather than innuendo and personal testimony. If the USADA bans Armstrong, WADA could (and according to their mandate, should) overturn the ban and return the titles to Armstrong.

Indeed, if USADA bans Armstrong for life, it is only a ban from competing as an American. UCI rules allow a cyclist to represent any country, as long as they pay their dues to the national cycling federation; so Armstrong could register as a Canadian, Australian or even Chinese rider, and as WADA cannot enforce the ban, would have to allow Armstrong to ride.

BTW, I've heard the rumours regarding Armstrong's hushed-up positive tests, as well. But I've never heard of any compeling reason to believe in them; it wouldn't be in the lab's interest to hush the finding up, and given Armstrong's rocky relationship with the UCI I'd expect the lab findings to have leaked out somehow. The original story came from a journalist who was a known Armstrong-basher, who refused to hand over any evidence of the lab findings.

However, I do agree that it will be a great day for cycling once this is all over - the shadow of drugs has been cast over cycling for far too long and I'll be overjoyed when the case is laid to rest, whatever the outcome.

ps: Personally, I think he's guilty, too, but I don't know that and I certainly don't want to see him found erroneously guilty.

---------- Post added at 16:03 ---------- Previous post was at 15:32 ----------

For an example of the problem cycling has had with drugs, see this chart of Tour de France top tens from 1999-2006 (apologies for size):


Riders in gray are those who have been found guilty of doping, not those only suspected. So if we count Armstrong as gray and ban all cyclists found of doping from all results for life, Cadel Evans wins the 2005 Tour!

[zed]

BTW, I've heard the rumours regarding Armstrong's hushed-up positive tests, as well. But I've never heard of any compeling reason to believe in them; it wouldn't be in the lab's interest to hush the finding up, and given Armstrong's rocky relationship with the UCI I'd expect the lab findings to have leaked out somehow. The original story came from a journalist who was a known Armstrong-basher, who refused to hand over any evidence of the lab findings.

My understanding was that he failed a number of tests, but then his team produced fraudulent dr's prescriptions for drugs that he had supposedly taken that would give a positive reading. However as he had a prescription he was let off the hook.

[sittingbison]

I don't know where you got your info about the court case or WADA, or the failed tests, or the journalist from sheikh, but to my certain knowledge it is completely incorrect. I'm happy to discuss with you any time, but probably not on this thread I don't want a slanging match. PM me if you want. If you want me to talk about it here, just say so and I'll give a complete rundown.
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[Sheikh]

Nah, I can't be bothered

[sittingbison]

Nah, I can't be bothered

TBH I'm all Lanced out too, and deflated after another debacle
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[Happy]

Nah, I can't be bothered

how ironic

[sittingbison]

I would like to quickly debunk the major Armstrong myths, because TWF is a fantastic site full of great people passionate about the Force (and two Reds and one Brums lol), and I can't stand the thought of misinformation being perpetuated here.
Never Tested Positive:
Armstrong started doping at 18 in 1990 when he went under the influence of USA coach Chris Carmichael, a confirmed systematic doper. This is confirmed by a multitude of failed testosterone and HGC levels prior to 1996. He remained with Carmichael his whole career.
1996 according to sworn testimony IN COURT (with risk of perjury and jail - see Marion Jones) told treating doctor after brain surgery he was taking testosterone, EPO, human growth hormone, insulin and steroids. This sworn testimony came out in SCA case in 2006 where he sued his insurance company for not paying out $5m on record TdF victories.
1999 failed corticosteroid test without a TUE. Said in nr
2000 USPS was busted with actovegin (extract of calf blood) in medical waste.
2001 failed EPO test, covered up by UCI but Lausanne Lab Director Saugy has since come clean and told USADA that Armstrong’s samples were indicative of EPO use.
2004 skipped out on out of competition test at Texas ranch (automatic fail).
2005 six samples taken in 1999 failed EPO tests, another two entirely consistent with EPO.
2009 Bruyneel delayed tester for 20 minutes while Armstrong had a shower (unobserved). Bio passport entirely consistent with transfusions, his off scores hematocrit levels and reticulocyte percentages alter significantly during the Tour de France after rest days. Transfusion kits found in Astana medical waste - the use of such kits is banned by WADA, their use a sanction offence.
2010 Team delayed tester for one hour, inviting him to coffee. Same issues with bio passport. The biopassport information was not released by UCI to USADA until WADA forced them to under threat of Olympic expulsion, but they did manage to destroy all of Armstrong's samples.
500-600 Tests - most tested athlete on planet:
at last count this is 236, generously including ALL podiums since 1991 (patently not tested) and biopassport samples (which are not tests). His paid liars laughingly even upped the usual ArmstrongSpeak of 500 to 600 tests in Fed injunction, but when asked to provide evidence of this number failed to do so.
$500m dollars raised for cancer research:
Livestrong has raised $235m since 1997, the figure of $500m first appeared in Armstrong's statement on Friday. They have spent $20m on research, and stopped all funding in 2005. They now use the term "awareness" instead of research, although the general public has generally not made the distinction. Further Livestrong.com is a profit organisation run by Armstrong's internet company, nothing to do with non-profit Livestrong Foundation Livestrong.org.
The whole cancer issue is the single biggest casualty of this fiasco, as millions dealing with cancer took hope from the Armstrong story, only to have those hopes dashed by the despicable actions of a filthy lying cheating fraud, who has filled his veins AFTER cancer with poisonous substances and fraudulently conned millions of dollars from well wishers in the process.
Food and Drug Administration Fraud Investigation:
US Attorney Birotte Jr unceremoniously closed the case without explanation after the Grand Jury hearings, to the amazement of Novitzky and all other investigators who were on the verge of charging Armstrong with Fraud by using federal money (United States Postal Service) to funds a conspiracy of team based doping program. The witnesses had asked Tygart to sit in on their grand jury testimony to Novitzky, they knew USADA had a parallel case and after Marion Jones was jailed for perjury were petrified at possible discrepancies in their sworn testimony.
The FDA investigation for fraud is entirely separate to the USADA investigation for doping. Doping is not a crime in the USA. FDA is not at liberty to hand over any of its collected evidence or testimony, as by definition USADA is not a State Actor (enabling the arbitration process rather than court hearings).
Witch Hunt:
Five others were charged with the same offences. Armstrong is not singles out. Further he was invited to talk frankly with USADA along with all his team mates. He ALONE chose not to do so. USADA has charged more than 50 athletes in past five years, along with Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, so Armstrong is not alone on the fame stakes.
#Unconstitutional:
Armstrong immediately launched an 80 page Federal Court injunction with Judge Sparks in Austin Texas, despite saying he would not do so after the FDA fiasco. They were thrown out within a day. They refiled a 23 page injunction, which after several extensions due to Armstrong's paid liars missing deadlines and submitting oversize briefs was unceremoniously thrown out again. Sparks categorically ruled Armstrong was under the full authority and jurisdiction of USADA. There were some SMALL criticisms of USADA charging procedures, within and 18 page summation. These small criticisms ensured it is impossible for Armstrong to appeal to the 5th Circuit Court for procedural error.
Armstrong came under the authority of USADA by nature of signing for a professional riding license with USAC. This is entirely open and above board, he has submitted himself to USADA testing, and even submitted a letter from Tygart stipulating he was under their testing regime in his SCA case.
Armstrong's own manager drafted the USADA guidelines and practices. He has a huge team of paid liars. He is completely aware of all results of his actions, that he is under their jurisdiction, and that he is automatically guilty if he does not agree to arbitration. He also knows when in the process the evidence is submitted, which is after agreeing to arbitration and not before.
UCI -WADA-ASO:
Fat Pat McQuaid said in an interview the USADA had complete authority to investigate and charge Armstrong et al. During the Federal Court hearings he then wrote two drunken rambling letters saying the opposite. These were then categorically refuted by WADA. Two hours after the outcome, UCI (not Fat Pat) said they were once again behind USADA.
It appears UCI under Verbruggen then McQuaid were completely corrupt in dealings with Armstrong. They accepted at least $125k from Armstrong (the only time in history an athlete has contributed to their authority) in 2002 (see 2001 cover up). They did not sanction Armstrong in 1999. They covered up positives. They did not release test values to WADA. They did not process the biopassport discrepancies. They publicly supported a rider in an official doping investigation, the first time in the history of sport.
To be clear, WADA is completely backing USADA. UCI appears to be part of the "conspiracy" that Armstrong et al are charged with.
The WADA code to which UCI and USAC are signatory (enabling their participation in the Olympics) gives full authority to USADA to sanction Armstrong, strip him of all performances, and impose a worldwide life time ban in all Olympic sports. USADA submits its findings to WADA and UCI for ratification, both can appeal to CAS. Which they will not do. Amoury Sports Organisation (ASO) owns the TdF, if they do not comply they will lose credibility and public confidence, and lose corporate support.
Statute of Limitations (SOL):
The SOL is eight years, which goes back to the 2004 and 2005 titles. The reason why USADA will strip him of all performances back to 1998 is because the SOL is opened in the case of a conspiracy, which is one of the charges.
Witness Intimidation:
Armstrong has a long history of bulling and intimidation, which is why the names were not released.
1999 He told rider Christophe Bassons he had no future in the sport after one article querying climbing performances. Armstrong proudly repeated this conversation in a news conference. Bassons was a clean rider on Festina in 1998. Bassons was not supported in the peleton or by UCI, saw the writing on the wall and retired.
2004 He individually chased down a breakaway containing Filipo Simeoni, who had testified against Michal Ferrari. The breakaway pleaded for Armstrong to go back, which he refused unless Simeoni abandoned. This destroyed Simeonis career.
2004 He sued David Walsh and the Sunday Times (and lost). He sued Emma O'Reilly for repeating the 1999 story. He fired then sued personal mechanic Mike Anderson for stealing property after Anderson found a box of Androstenedione, a banned steroid
2005 He flew interstate to attend Betsy Andreus sworn deposition in SCA case vis a vis 1996 hospital conversation. He then publicly described Betsy as a fat ugly and obsessed (which she most assuredly is not). In a recorded conversation he tried to get husband and ex-team mate Frankie Andreu to refute his wife, then publicly castigated him. Frankie has never managed to get a team into a major race since.
2005 sued SCA for not paying out $5m due to suspicions Armstrong doped
200X sued ex team mate New Zealander Stephen Swart
2008 Stephanie McIlvain, a close friend of Armstrong's who worked for one of his sponsors, the Oakley eyewear company, called Betsy Andreu and left this message on her answering machine: "I hope somebody breaks a baseball bat over your head. I also hope that one day you have adversity in your life and you have some type of tragedy that will definitely make an impact on you."
2010 Armstrong offered $300k for any information that Greg LeMond was doping
2010 Trek ruined Greg Lemonds bike company. Lemond sued and won.
2011 He flew to Aspen and aggressively confronted Tyler Hamilton in a restaurant washroom, just before Hamilton was due in front of FDA Grand Jury
2012 Paid private Investigators to find dirt on three independent arbitrators, which they then published that one was a sex deviant.
2012 UCI President Fat Pat McQuaid publicly embarrassed four US riders in the TdF, insinuating they should be sanctioned and not competing for admitting to doping in USADA case - despite zero evidence this was the case.
Armstrong would have won anyway:
Armstrong never gave any indication pre-cancer he was capable of competing in a Grand Tour let alone being a General Classification(GC) contender. He won the 1993 World Championship in a race in horrible weather, including roads covered in a torrential downpour, rendering the road surface slippery like ice due to the diesel and oil on them. The inclement conditions resulted in one of the smallest finishing fields in history, and the withdrawal of the majority of race favourites citing the danger the weather presented.
He enjoyed some success in classic riding winning the occasional one day race or stage and podium places on a few others, but did not even finish the Tour until his third attempt in 1996 (36th) after he met Michal Ferrari. He could not climb and was average at time trialling. He famously got captured by Indurain in the 1994 Tour individual time trial.

Cancer does not turn an athlete into superman.

Hopefully this clears up a bit of misinformation doing the rounds. There is an increasing amount of info becoming available as journos etc realize he has lost his power to retaliate. PM me if you want any other info or have queries. Personally I want to go back to rugby

[zed]

Thanks for the post sittingbison.

Putting the drugs to one side for second, prior to his cancer, LA was quite bulky (for a cyclist anyway) as he was a competitive swimmer/triathlete. After having cancer, he lost a lot of weight and when he was back to full fitness, his physique was much leaner improving him as a cyclist.

[palitu]

sooo.... Guilty?