Opinions on making a great dynasty

[ShakeNBake]

Hey guys, first thread so be gentle!

I was speaking with a buddy after the force lions game and the force's future. We talked about what it takes to bring together a winning side (or that cliche term, dynasty) and we came up with a few central points that I thought i'd highlight here and ask for your opinions.

Player Retention/Continuity in the team, the first one we cited was this. It is important to keep a core group of players in. Whether that be a group of players (Steyn, Matfield, Botha, Du Preez & Habana) or two to build a backline around (Genia and Cooper). When we pick that idea to try and put the force in the picture, where do you think we can start? Obviously Pocock is the first one, I haven't seen anyone else, perhaps Ebersohn? I must admit I have not seen a whole lot of club rugby or U20 etc. level so perhaps you guys could highlight a few?

Up and Coming Players. Another problem is Perth doesn't exactly a history steeped in Rugby tradition. All three past champions (Bulls, Crusaders and Reds) have club side rugby clubs, colleges and universities that can be described as Breeding Grounds, they are pumped out on a continual basis. Given this, do we need to (or are we able to even create) a culture or a community in WA that rates rugby union higher than other codes (most of us know that will perhaps be nigh on impossible given how popular AFL is here in WA).

Environment. Last one (that I can remember, it being a saturday night and all) was this idea of the environment. This pertains to the environment that the club is in, not only the city and it's people, but the facilities/stadium they use and the fans they play for. I'm sure all of us can agree that we (in all honesty and modesty) have close to the best fans in the league in terms of regular attendance (is that because we have one of the smallest grounds so it looks better since it's full? I digress...) The last thing which was interesting was job security and this idea that people would want to leave their home-town, a better team (usually) and their family/friends for a two-year contract? what do you guys think about that?

I'll stop there or I'll be here all day
Thanks for getting this far

[The InnFORCEr]

Welcome SnB, I'm sure you will get plenty of feedback on the pionts raised.

I agree with the first point and belive it has been achived, it just needs to continue - Sharpe, Pocock, Brown, Hodgson, been there from day 1 (except Bam) and only Sharpie could possibly leave next year.

[GIGS20]

To extend on TIF's comments. I think we've done all of those things at the Force....but only in the Forwards.

We now have a competitive pack, built around long term, quality players who were (for the most part) developed in Perth. There seems to be a genuine momentum there and obviously a culture which draws and retains quality players.

By contrast, our backs have always been short-term, poorly engaged, limited development, buy-a-solution kind of environment. It's interesting when you look at it through the glasses than SnB have provided that such a glaring difference exists in the one team.

My hope (possibly vain hope, but hope nonetheless) is that the backs coach will recognise this and begin to do some of the stuff that the forwards have benefited from in the beginning. Talent identification, adequate preparation and training, blooding the quality early and management of culture. I don't know for sure, but suspect that this is a bit of a legacy from Mitch (possibly aided by Tim Johnston and the board) Mitch obviously knows forwards rugby IMPLICITLY and has done a great job of developing that, but didn't do much with the backs (in fact his relationship was so sour that Gits tried to mutiny on him) we need a great head coach for sure, but equally important is that we get somebody who brings a backs coach who can do that without completely alienating the forwards.

[Nipper]

Welcome SnB!

I think the core/continuity issue is tough. I'm not even sure it can really even be done now, due to the way players are moving around. Despite the $h!tshow that has been this season, I am heartened by the potential that is emerging int he backline. Mafi, Tuopu, Wara, and of course the Honeybadger -- if they continue on their current arc, they could become potent if Ebersohn really is the guy to set them loose.

The other thing is culture, although that term has become such a cliche'. What I'm referring to is developing an attitude (on and off the field), playing style that is the "Force way". Even when players move in and out of the franchise, the "Force way" doesn't change. That's the magic of Canterbury.

This issue is close to my heart, because I'm coaching a team that I once played for, who have lost their way. Trying to build a team culture, and it's much easier said than done!

[ShakeNBake]

Thanks for your comments guys!

By contrast, our backs have always been short-term, poorly engaged, limited development, buy-a-solution kind of environment. It's interesting when you look at it through the glasses than SnB have provided that such a glaring difference exists in the one team.

My hope (possibly vain hope, but hope nonetheless) is that the backs coach will recognise this and begin to do some of the stuff that the forwards have benefited from in the beginning. Talent identification, adequate preparation and training, blooding the quality early and management of culture. I don't know for sure, but suspect that this is a bit of a legacy from Mitch (possibly aided by Tim Johnston and the board) Mitch obviously knows forwards rugby IMPLICITLY and has done a great job of developing that, but didn't do much with the backs (in fact his relationship was so sour that Gits tried to mutiny on him) we need a great head coach for sure, but equally important is that we get somebody who brings a backs coach who can do that without completely alienating the forwards.

I think the core/continuity issue is tough. I'm not even sure it can really even be done now, due to the way players are moving around...I am heartened by the potential that is emerging in the backline Mafi, Tuopu, Wara, and of course the Honeybadger .-- if they continue on their current arc, they could become potent if Ebersohn really is the guy to set them loose.

The other thing is culture, although that term has become such a cliche'. What I'm referring to is developing an attitude (on and off the field), playing style that is the "Force way". Even when players move in and out of the franchise, the "Force way" doesn't change. That's the magic of Canterbury.

Reading your comments i feel as though there's been a separation between the philosophy of the forwards way of working and the backs? Not to say that they should be the same (I don't think many people would like a prop dropping in the pocket for a drop goal), but perhaps there hasn't been a overall plan in place where both parts of the team are put together. That would certainly explain the (sorry for the harsh words) lack of class and/or depth in our backline while our forwards are going from strength to strength (well spotted, GIGS20). As you said Nipper, they are growing and building in potential but this is a recent thing.

Going back onto my first post, coaching (or should I say upper management and that word CULTURE ) must also have a place as well, to facilitate this process and not axe the coach as soon as the results seem to go against them. I mean the crusaders have kept coaching in house for as long as I can remember, going back to sloane and more recently, deans and blackadder, these guys are canterbury born and bred (deans and blackadder were captains). The Force need a good all-round coaching team not just one half being looked after. What do you think about Sharpe being brought back as a coach (if he's willing) maybe even Brendan Cannon? These guys are as good as any to begin trying to breed this "culture".

Thanks once again guys, really helped me put things in perspective

[sittingbison]

Yup, for a young franchise struggling with identity it is a must to keep guys like Sharpie, Spanner and Cannon involved. That is the way to perpetuate a "culture".

What I like about our backs now is that they are NOT stars bought in like MItchell and Gits. If they develop like we would like it will all be from within the team, which is the other way that culture and style are perpetuated.

I thought we had a "Force Way" under Mitchell, although we were lacking in certain areas I liked our running game and never say die attitude, we always toughed it out. It is only since 2010 that our game style has fallen apart, which means the backs are no longer producing the goods. I know Gits and Mitchell leaving, Spanner retiring, Shep getting injured have gutted the backs, but there has been a solid period of crap recruiting, poor skill development and brain dead game plan that has not helped.

Oh and we MUST play the WA way - attack attack attack which we do in ALL our sporting teams. Ball in hand and run it, get it wide as fast as possible, and only kick tactically not strategically. We cannot afford to play like the Tahs with kicking, or certain SA teams through the forwards

[James]

All of those top teams played to a particular strength but also had a generally high level of skill. The Bulls had an amazing combination of players. They were untouchable in the line-out. They scrummed well. They mauled well. Steyn and Hougaard before him kicked well. They were vulnerable to being run off their feet but Bryan Habana lurking for an intercept was a constant threat. The Reds played to their strength in the backline. Cooper's passing made the Reds backs even more of a threat. Guys like Ben Daley and Saia Faingaa, who are shithouse scrummagers, have such a high work rate that the Reds could retain possession, get quick ball and make big inroads in attack. Crusaders = McCaw the pilfer king + hardcore counter-attacking skills.

Our strength would unquestionably be our work at the breakdown and resulting ability to hold onto possession. We just haven't been able to do anything with it. If we weren't so horrendously predictable, we could put the opposition under a lot of pressure. We also need work out a few moves so that we score tries when we get into the red zone. Our line-out and scrum are also relative strengths but again we just haven't been able to do anything with them. We probably aren't too far away from changing that. The right coach + the right 9 + another quality 10/12 and we'll be set. I'm very confident that Justin Turner, Ebersohn and Winston Stanley will come good for us in the next 12 months. I'm imagining the point where the right coach comes in and gets a backline of...

9. Justin Turner
10. Sias Ebersohn
11. Nick Cummins
12. Winston Stanley
13. Will Tupou
14. Alfie Mafi
15. Kyle Godwin

... to click. You can't be a Force fan and not be optimistic.

[shasta]

Way to go James. Glass half.full. In any case the only way is up.
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[Sheikh]

Not a bad line-up, James, but I'd prefer:

9. Mark Swanepoel
10. Sias Ebersohn
11. Nick Cummins
12. Winston Stanley
13. Will Tupou
14. Sam Wara
15. Alfie Mafi

Turner hasn't shown enough when I've seen him, and I think Godwin would learn better as a utility back off the bench (like O'Connor did).

[James]

I like Godwin in there at 15 because it adds an extra playmaker and makes us less predictable.

We haven't seen much at all of Turner since 2010. Although he had a really bad game against someone (Hurricanes maybe) earlier on in the season. He's less of an all rounder than Swanepoel, but he does have a quicker pass and is definitely a bit more zippy.