Gender row flares as Semenya blitzes women's 800m final

[laura]

What does that really mean - will she be able to have children and a normal relationship as a female?

Typically most intersexed individuals are infertile. It can depend on the type of intersex condition the individual has. There's about 5 different conditions and from what has been reported it sounds like she has complete AIS but I don't know exactly what her case is & I'm no expert after 7 weeks.
Having both male and female reproductive systems, they both produce different hormones so if, by chance, she is fertile she would need hormone replacement therapies and surgery to remove the male reproductive system (assuming she wants to continue to identify as a female). Its no assurance though and it really depends on the individual.

Yes my heart does go out to her, Watching the children grow it is one of the first things that you learn - babies don't really understand what sex they are till they are about 4 and then you're destined or channelled into Barbie or Thomas.

Actually by the age of 3 a child is supposed to have identified with a gender and therefore realises the Gender Role/Identity and its thought impossible for someone to change the concept of one's gender identity. The only way intersexed indivuals are identified at birth, is if there is a presence of ambiguous genitalia.

From birth people always ask if a baby is male or female, and treat the child differently depending on gender. Toilet training is different for males and females and all through life there is a distinct seperation and not much allowance for anything out of the 'norm' i.e. there's only male and female toilets, there's no allowance for intersexed indiviuals unless they wish to use the disabled toilets. Which then raises issues of discrimination by suggesting that intersexed individuals are in some way disabled. There's also this example, Semenya can't compete in the male events as she has external female genitalia and not enough male hormones to be competing at the same level but then she can't compete as a female because she has too much testosterone which is advantagous for competing in female events.

On the brighter side for Semenya, the condition is estimated to affect as many as 1% of the population and there's probably more athletes competing in this world who are intersexed and don't even know it.

There's still so much ignorance and prejudice towards those with the condition though. I was just looking on the ninemsn homepage & there's a poll..Should Caster Semenya be stripped of her world title or not? Of the ~66,000 votes ~34,000 said no and about ~32,000 say yes.

[rick boyd]

The concept that children "identify" with a gender makes it sound like a choice or cultural influence. Much though feminists would like that to be the case, the evidence is that while we are a two-gender species reproductively, we are all really members of a "gender spectrum" and what really makes us "male" or "female" in behaviour is the physiological development of the brain, which is controlled by the dose of hormones every embryo receives in the first weeks of existence. Depending on the balance of testosterone and oestrogen received, the individual develops a gendered brain to one degree or another. Extreme male brains are highly compartmentalised and good at spatial relationships but poor at communication and emotional subtlety. The part that deals with sex is six times larger than the female brain and the part that deals with action is in use even during relaxation (men like watching sport). There are body correlations too -- wide shoulders, 'v'-shaped torso, pronounced jaw and supra-orbital ridges. And oddly, the third (ring) fingers is always longer than the index finger. Check it out guys. Extreme female brains are highly interconnected and they are great at multi-tasking and communication and read emotional signals that men miss by a mile, but they're crap at reading maps. The part of the brain that ticks over during relaxation is the communication centre (women like to gossip and watch TV shows about social relationships ie soap operas). Most of the population is significantly male or female even if they don't fall into the extreme category but a minority received more of the other sex's hormones in the embryonic stage and their brains behave more like, or in some cases, totally like, the opposite sex. There is significant evidence, although it is not conclusive, that gay and lesbian people fall into this last category. Fascinating subject, if occasionally controversial.

It should have been blindingly obvious to the casual observer that this unfortunate girl was physiologically significantly male and this has been confirmed, although a degree that is highly unusual in that she is reproductively confused as well. A horribly damaging public disclosure on the global stage and one that may have lasting psychological damage for a young person just trying to succeed at sport.

[Working Class]

A very public way to discover you have such a condition. Though when the issue first come up I did bring this up with my old man. The arguement was around whether or not she was cheating. I believe she hasn't as long as she was unaware of her condition. She trained for it and deserves the gold medal because at the time of the race she wasn't aware of her intersexuality. However, the WR she set should be scrapped. And realistically her running career is over. You have to feel for her.

[laura]

The concept that children "identify" with a gender makes it sound like a choice or cultural influence.

"Identify" is used in terms of a gender identity. By that I mean a child behaves and has the mannerisms of a male or female as determined by the external genitalia they possess and therefore the way they are raised. Basically if a child is born with male external genitalia, stereotypically they are dressed in blue(as opposed to pink), they're given car/truck/dinosaur toys (as opposed to dolls/tea sets), people describe the infant as a 'handsome young man' (as opposed to a beautiful little girl), they're taught to stand when urinating (as opposed to sitting) and they're encouraged to participate in contact more sports (as opposed to dancing/gymnastics/tennis).
From birth they are raised differently, pick up on the behaviours their parents display as 'male' and 'female' behaviours, and they're taught what is culturally acceptable for their gender. So yes, identifying is somewhat a choice but it is greatly influenced by societal and cultural norms.

Much though feminists would like that to be the case, the evidence is that while we are a two-gender species reproductively, we are all really members of a "gender spectrum"

Its not a feminist theory, its a sexologist concept and yes the evidence does show we are a two-gender species reproductively, but genetically there is much variance and that doensn't suggest there's is a gender spectrum, rather that there are chromosomal abnormalities.

and what really makes us "male" or "female" in behaviour is the physiological development of the brain, which is controlled by the dose of hormones every embryo receives in the first weeks of existence.

What makes us male or female is the androgen bath. In the first six weeks, after conception, there is no distinguishing characteristic between male and female, as both Wolffian ducts and Mullerian ducts are present, as well as a genital tubercle. If there's a Y chromosome, then at the sixth week an androgen bath occurs and the H-Y antigen is triggered which initiates the production of musculanising hormones i.e. testosterone and the Mullerian ducts are somewhat destroyed. If the Y chromosome is not present then the foetus continues to produce oestrogen and progesterone levels increase, causing the Wolffian ducts to be destroyed.
When there is insensitivity to the androgens, this is when chromosomal disorders occur ie both sets of genitalia develop (from the Wolffian and Mullerian ducts) incompletely and it results in infertile intersexed individuals.

Depending on the balance of testosterone and oestrogen received, the individual develops a gendered brain to one degree or another.

As far as research has gone, this appears to be true. In the case of Semenya though, she had 3 times the 'normal' amount of Testosterone for a female, yet she has always identified as a female and never considered herself to be a male...so I'd be inclined to think that hormones don't necessarily 'gender' an individual's brain toward either male or female. Also in the case of transgender males, for example, who are born genetically, hormonally and physically as males yet they choose to identify as females. What's the explanation then? Biologically they're as much a male as any other bloke but do not consider themselves to be a male. Even if they were to have gender reassignment surgery and hormone therapy, biologically, psychologically and social they would be female but legally they're still male.

There are body correlations too -- wide shoulders, 'v'-shaped torso, pronounced jaw and supra-orbital ridges.

That's irrelevant. There are always people with different body shapes and sizes, there's variation between racial groups but that isn't determined by hormones.

Most of the population is significantly male or female even if they don't fall into the extreme category but a minority received more of the other sex's hormones in the embryonic stage and their brains behave more like, or in some cases, totally like, the opposite sex. There is significant evidence, although it is not conclusive, that gay and lesbian people fall into this last category. Fascinating subject, if occasionally controversial.

That's not just a hormonal thing. Social and psychological factors play a part in influencing a person's gender role as well.
I'm hesitant to take not of the evidence regarding gay and lesbian people's homosexual relations as a result of hormonal imbalances. If it happens that a man loves a man or a woman loves a woman, its not necessarily a result of the hormones in their system and I would find it hard to prove that as the case. People fall in love with people, not their gender.

It should have been blindingly obvious to the casual observer that this unfortunate girl was physiologically significantly male and this has been confirmed,

How so? She has female external gentilia and just because she has a pronounced jaw line, smaller breasts and masculine build doesn't mean she's a bloke. Thats a very sterotypical approach to gender and but sadly thats the way the majority of society thinks.

although a degree that is highly unusual in that she is reproductively confused as well.

She isn't reproductively confused. Genetically she has a chromosomal disorder, whether that's having XXY or an extra chromosomes. Its not as unusual as most would think.

[rick boyd]

Laura, thanks for the time you have devoted to this reply but you're just repeating the things you said the first time. Your case for cultural gendering says that you could take a male child, dress him in pink, give him dolls to play with he'd identify with the female gender. Evidence suggests that is not the case. He has a male brain and would behave in male ways. There was the case of the University professor who thought he would expose his daughter to a gender-neutral unbringing and gave her some toy trucks to play with. She immediately called one of the trucks "daddy truck", a second "mummy truck" and a third "baby truck" and constructed family social games with them, instead of driving dirt around (and probably banging them into each other) like a boy would. And the case you're making for genetics is misplaced. The gender spectrum arises from hormone-related physiological brain growth, not genetics. You can have one extreme male twin, and one feminine male twin, both having identical DNA, but having developed very differently physiologically. In Semenya's case, which gender she "identifies" with culturally is not the issue. Physiologically she is significantly male -- her musculature, body shape and facial development are all strongly suggestic of male characteristics. It is no coincidence that serious women's sport is dominated by women with male-oriented brains and body shapes. The disproportionate number of lesbians in professional sport has often been commmented on. This is because no matter how much they identify culturally with being female, their male-oriented brains impel them into male activities such as highly competitive behaviours and physical action. It is an interesting and controversial side-note that the most strident feminist activists also fall into this category. It would not be innacurate, in my opinion, to say that they are not "feminists" at all, but "masculinists", exhibiting highly male competitive male behaviours in advancing the cultural cause of feminism (and alienating most female-brain women in the process). And to answer your question, transgender individuals of both sexes have developed brains of the opposite sex, and this can be measured imperically. And are you really saying that hormonal development has no influence on body type development? I think this is pretty mainstream science now. It's not the only factor, obviously, but it is a significant factor. And yes, cultural factors also play a part in gender behaviour. But they're not the most important determining factor, as I understand it. This upsets a lot of feminists. They hate to think our gendering is largely physiological. They NEED to believe that all women can be equal to (actually, BETTER THAN) men in every regard once patriarchal gender conditioning has been removed. Science is not on their side. And if people fall in love with people, why don't 50% of both sexes fall in love with members of their own gender? Why is this restricted to an apparently constant minority? And as for Semenya being "genitically confused", you quibble over semantics. "A chromosomal disorder" is fine for me too. Obviously, she cannot continue to compete in women's events, she has excessive testosterone and male physical characteristics that make it unfair on other female competitors (and she isn't good enough to compete with the men if she re-qualified as male). Not to mention the presence of internal testicles and the lack of uterus and ovaries. Thanks for the debate Laura, it is an area of growing knowledge and interest that I find quite interesting. Our species has lived with effects of the male-female binary for all of its existence yet understood so little of how it really works.

[Thequeerone]

Hopefully this knowledge makes us kinder to people like this young lady - she is not male ergo she is female.

[GIGS20]

I think that view needs to be balanced with consideration for the athletes she will compete against. I have no problem with her being legally female etc but it's obvious she has a competitive advantage over other female athletes. She shouldn't be punished for that as she had no knowledge that the advantage was due to a genetic abnormality but surely this is not fair to the 99% (according to Laura's numbers) of female athletes who do not exhibit this abnormality.

I liked the idea that came up earlier in this thread where she keeps her Gold but the record is wiped......seems pretty fair all around.

But where does she compete now? She doesn't have as much testosterone and development as a man, therefore can't match performance, but has too much for a woman therefore is unfairly advantaged. She is obviously a gifted athlete. An avaerage bloke could never win an 800 in that field, so she should be able to compete.....but how?

[brokendown gunfighter]

let her run in the mens race with a 30m start!

[GIGS20]

I actually considered that, why not the women's race as a backmarker?

[laura]

It is interesting, especially how the situation will be dealt with now. Will Semenya have to have surgery and hormone therapies to be allowed to compete as a female or will she just give it up now?
Even though it must be immensley upsetting for an 18 year old to have to go through this so publicly, at least its raised the issue and hopefully helped to make people more aware and possibly accepting of the condition.

[Sheikh]

I presume that following surgery Caster would be able to continue competing. If she choses to be female (everything I've seen points to her identifying as female) then I wonder if they'll set a fixed time before she can compete again? Drug cheats get a 2-year ban, although that would seem abnormally harsh as Caster *hasn't* cheated.

I don't know how long the effects of her high testosterone will last - sprinters say that the testosterone allows them to build muscles but once built as long as you keep them active you'll keep the same muscles. That might give Caster a life-long advantage but short of giving her her own race I can't think of a more satisfactory outcome.

[Burgs]

let her run in the mens race with a 30m start!

That would be unfair, all the men would want to run away...

[laura]

Complaint lodged over Caster Semenya treatment
September 18, 2009 08:20am

THE South African Government has lodged a complaint with the United Nations on behalf of world champion runner Caster Semenya.

The complaint deals with the treatment of South African track star Semenya, who has been ordered to undergo gender tests after winning the women's 800m final at the recent World Championships.

South Africa's Minister for Women, Children and People With Disabilities Noluthando Mayende-Sibiya filed the action.

The gender testing was ordered by the International Association of Athletics Federations..............

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/stor...005361,00.html

[TommyM]

In my opinion, if she has her testicles removed, she should be allowed to compete as a woman after the normal period applied to someone who has taken a banned substance (think this is normally 2 years or so??), as after such a period any beneficial anabolic and metabolic effects of the testosterone from the testes would be deemed to have been lost. This is probably her best option.

Laura, are you studying medicine or vet? You sound very well informed. Can anyone tell me the details of the findings? Is she an XXY hermaphrodite? Or XX with a tdf (testis determining factor) transfer to one of her X chromosomes??

[AndyS]

You can just see the mess that is coming out of all this for everyone, can't you? They will end up with 450 pages of eligibility rules, and the moment it is settled someone will immediately try to apply it cross-sports. Lance Armstrong is halfway there by the sounds of it...