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Thread: Possible Bipartisan Province for S15 Melbourne

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    Veteran mudskipper's Avatar
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    Arrow Possible Bipartisan Province for S15 Melbourne

    Battle to rage over Super 15 Gold Coast bid

    Print Wayne Smith | May 05, 2009 The Australian


    THE other shoe in Australian rugby has finally dropped with confirmation that a Gold Coast consortium is being formed to bid for a Super rugby expansion franchise licence.

    Melbourne was the first Australian city to declare itself a contender for the new Super 15 franchise but for months there has been intense speculation of a second bid, either from the Gold Coast or western Sydney.

    Nonetheless, Australian Rugby Union boss John O'Neill last night indicated Melbourne was the clear favourite in the race, even suggesting Australia might enter into a joint venture with New Zealand to set up a new franchise in the Victorian capital.

    "Just thinking outside the square, if you're getting to market saturation point in New Zealand then that's something we should look at," said O'Neill, who had in mind a joint venture not just in terms of funding any new Melbourne franchise but also in terms of finding players for it.

    "When a NZ team plays an Australian team in Super 14, the ratings are fabulous but when two NZ teams play each other, the ratings here also are very strong and that's because there are about a million New Zealanders living in Australia.

    "When the All Blacks were based in Melbourne during the 2003 World Cup, they received tremendous support, as have Crusaders' pre-season matches against the Western Force."

    While Melbourne seems unassailable if and when the extended Super rugby season is approved by SANZAR and Australia fights off South Africa's Southern Kings to win the right to field the 15th team in the competition, there still is a formal tendering process to go through. And so far, O'Neill said, the only formal expression of interest had been lodged by the Gold Coast Rugby Union.

    Prominent Gold Coast businessman Terry Jackman said yesterday preliminary steps had been taken to set up a consortium to challenge Melbourne for the licence.

    "The Gold Coast is the third-biggest city behind Sydney and Brisbane in Australia's rugby heartland yet, while it boasts an NRL side, is earmarked for an AFL team, and even has soccer and basketball teams. The only rugby presence there is the Gold Coast Breakers, which plays in the Brisbane club competition," Jackman said.

    He confirmed he had approached a wealthy Gold Coast entrepreneur - "not Clive Palmer" - to back any new Super rugby franchise to be based at Skilled Stadium, at Robina, also home of the NRL team, the Titans, and was confident there was sufficient private-equity money available to make the proposed venture a reality.

    Jackman said it was planned that the new team would be a composite side made up of players from Japan, the Pacific Islands and Australia. "I don't think there are sufficient players in Australia alone to man it," he said.

    He dismissed fears that a rival franchise just 100km down the Pacific Highway from Brisbane would undermine the already-struggling Queensland Reds.

    "The Reds have got a million people in Brisbane to draw their support from," Jackman said.

    However, to differentiate between the two organisations, Jackman proposed that a breakaway union combining the Gold Coast with northern NSW be created.

    Queensland Rugby Union chairman Peter Lewis declined to comment on the proposed Gold Coast franchise and how it might affect the Reds, but he did question whether it was wise for Australia to pursue a fifth franchise.

    "If you look at where the Australian teams are on the Super 14 ladder, you'll realise Australia will be lucky to get even one team into the play-offs," Lewis said. "So it's a question that needs to be asked: do we have the playing resources to man a fifth Australian team."

    Lewis said the four existing franchises, the Reds, Waratahs, Brumbies and Western Force, all were anxious for the extra home games that an expansion of Super rugby would deliver. "But frankly, we'd have those extra games if the new team was the one from South Africa, the Southern Kings," he said.

    "We have only two concerns: getting more games and not having our existing teams raped in order to find players to man the new team, as the Reds were when the Force was being set up in 2005."

    Yet if O'Neill's suggestion that Australia enter into a joint venture with New Zealand to set up the new franchise in Melbourne is supported on the other side of the Tasman, Lewis's fears might not be realised, certainly not to the extent of a repeat of the pillaging of the Reds by the Force four years ago.

    The other safeguard is that the ARU, which basically awarded the licence to Rugby WA in 2005 and then stood back, has learned from the mistakes made in establishing the Force. Almost certainly, any new licence will not be allocated exclusively to the Victorian Rugby Union, with the ARU likely to play a hands-on role in running the new franchise at least in its formative years.


    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...015651,00.html

    A Bipartisan Province could work well for the initial years... Why not Melbourne its cold and windy just like the Shaky Isles’.... Sounds like a great idea...

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    Senior Player tic's Avatar
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    "The Reds have got a million people in Brisbane to draw their support from," Jackman said.

    Newsflash Terry - Brisbane's population is actually 2 million, and the Reds are still struggling.

    Melbourne or Gold Coast, this is madness - it could kill this code in Australia. But greed will prevail - it always does.

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    Champion MI5_Dog's Avatar
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    I with you on that tic

    the squabbling over players this year by the existing franchises is terrible, the continual loss of players overseas has strangled Australian rugby in a time when the depth of quality players in Aus is a low as a snakes belly.

    without a second tier comp feeding good quality players into the super 14 in a Australia no 5th team will survive.

    Give it to the pacific islands!

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    Champion welshrugbyfan's Avatar
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    Why is there so much tunnel vision when it comes to rugby in Aus?

    We need a new 10 for example so immedialtely we start to want to poach only players from the other 3 Aus teams.

    Theres talk of expanding the Super 14 so the blinkers come on and we look at where in Aus can have the franchise.

    Bring in a Japanese club at least. Aus doesn't have the players to make another franchise yet. In a few years when the game really starts to grow and the seedlings are going well we can look at the 5th Aus team.

    When Japan takes something on they usually do it in a big way, the Force would be playing in front of 70,000+ fans a week at a Japanese home game. The pacific islands don't have the funds that Japan has got.

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    Senior Player tic's Avatar
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    I am in agreement about Japanese teams and in time South American teams (we would need a conference system then). Until then, a 5th Aussie team should be off the table.

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    Veteran mudskipper's Avatar
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    The game will grow if there is opportunity... bring on a Melbourne team... a bipartisan approach would be fine...





    Rugby can't grow in Australia if its kept as a bonsai…

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    Veteran laura's Avatar
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    Me too.

    Despite the number of fantastic players in Australia, we just don't have enough phenomenal players to cope with a 5th Australian team. Introducing a 5th team will cause way too much of a player drain on established players and you can't just take blokes straight out of year 12 and say "right here's your contract, move to Perth/Melbourne/Canberra/Sydney/Brisbane to play and now win us the championship". Sure there have been a few players straight out of school who have shown they are more than capable of moving to the other side of the country and doing well (ie. Pocock & JO'C) but its ridiculous to expect that there will be enough players to support all 5 Australian teams in doing that. Its ridiculous to expect players to rise to the level of Super14 players at such a young age and there to be no repercussions.

    Instead of sinking a couple of million into a new team we really need to provide support for the teams we have. Reinventing the ARC and creating a lower tier of professional rugby is the only viable option. O'Neill didn't give the ARC the chance to work. One season is not long enough to measure the financial success of something like that, no one expected them to make millions from a competition that was relatively unknown to those not part of the rugby community. Despite that point, the success in terms of player development was sure as hell worth every cent.

    For example: Tom Hockings, Pek Cowan and Nick Cummins have proven their success at a super 14 level and prior to the ARC were uncapped.
    Luke Burgess had only played 2 Super14 games prior to ARC and made it to starting Wallaby scrumhalf in 2008.
    Scott Higginbotham, Leroy Houston, Clinton Shifcofske, Anthony Faingaa, Saia Faingaa, Christian Lealiifano, Patrick Phibbs, Beau Robinson, Ben Lucas, Quade Cooper, Will Caldwell, Dean Mumm, Alfi Mafi, Ben Alexander, Kurtley Beale, Josh Holmes and Sam Wykes have all become more permanent inclusions in their respective Super 14 teams since playing in the ARC. That's 21 players who are an asset to any team and would be capable of getting Australia its 5th provincial team but without an ARC type of competition, the idea of a 5th team is ridiculous.

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    Last edited by laura; 05-05-09 at 12:24. Reason: spelling

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    Veteran mudskipper's Avatar
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    Look at how much talent popped up in the inaugural ARC year... The four Australian provinces’ don't need protection they just need to be managed better... The sport of Rugby has to grow to create depth for all... The Reds and the Force have to do better...

    Talent isn’t rare opportunity is…

    This “US before the betterment of the GAME” is just a scream for help without attending to the actual problems at hand…

    A fourth team could draw from the Pacific islands, NZ and Australia and OS (the two foreign player policy) it’s all covered...

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    (a.k.a. Mr Pinkbits) Stone Cold's Avatar
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    I'd love to see another S14 franchise go to Melbourne - they really know how to do sport there...and a trip to melbourne for rugby every other year would be awesome

    maybe relax the foreign player restrictions for the first couple of years to include something like five players...given a few years of development there are some quality young players ready for S14 that aren't getting gametime in the existing teams. A larger pool of players playing at the highest level means the national team will be stronger. The whole thing just needs a few years to adjust (like when the force came into the comp)...

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    coz Stone Cold says so

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    Champion welshrugbyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudskipper View Post
    The four Australian provinces’ don't need protection they just need to be managed better... The sport of Rugby has to grow to create depth for all... The Reds and the Force have to do better...

    A fourth team could draw from the Pacific islands, NZ and Australia and OS (the two foreign player policy) it’s all covered...
    5th team but I gathered what you mean.

    95% of PI boys if their any good head North. You'll find the ones who play in the NZ Super 14 teams were mostly born in the PI and have lived in NZ for most of their lives with a few exceptions of course.

    Maama Molitika is a classic example. Tongan lad, 6 foot 5 flanker, plays for Tonga and the PI, snapped up by the Welsh to play in the former Celtic League. Had a stint at Harlequins now back at Cardiff. What an awesome player. The NH is full of them, they tell their team about other family members (Haloti Molitika) Maama's younger cousin who is now snapped up by Worcester's academy team and lost to the SH.

    If the next Australian team was an Islander based team it would be attractive to players who didn't want to be so far from home. There are alot of Maori/Islanders already living in Aus. They have a real sense of family and it's important to them to stick together. You can see it in some of the NRL teams how it is working.

    I doubt the PI has the funds to run a team in the Super 14 but to be a feeder with an Aus based Islander team could work.

    Hey Melbourne here's your new team idea already done for you.


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    The ARC had eight full teams of players, and less than half of those are playing in the S14. What happened to the rest - did they all retire?

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    Senior Player Contributor WF2006's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyS View Post
    The ARC had eight full teams of players, and less than half of those are playing in the S14. What happened to the rest - did they all retire?
    Granted.........but how would they cope in the S14??

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    Initially poorly, much as most of our guys did in the first year. After that though, most of them came on quite nicely.

    Say we go for Pasifika or Japanese teams instead. Five years from now they would again be looking for another Aussie team to compete with the expanded AFL etc and again it would be "but there are not enough players to spread around". It is the flaw in any expansion or APC model that has the same number of teams just playing more games. If the players for the new team existed, where would they be playing? At the moment it would be club rugby, but that is semi-pro at best so the players are not anywhere near professional level because they are having to also earn a living. To get them to the level where they could play S14 they need a lot of work and fulltime training and club rugby just isn't going to do that. So catch 22 - we need more players to fill a new professional team but we don't have any players because we don't have any professional teams. At some point the bullet just needs to be bitten.

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    Veteran mudskipper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyS View Post
    The ARC had eight full teams of players, and less than half of those are playing in the S14. What happened to the rest - did they all retire?
    Like Ben Hand many went OS.... Ben played in Italy for a year... So its good to see him back in OZ rugby...

    ---------- Post added at 18:13 ---------- Previous post was at 18:10 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by WF2006 View Post
    Granted.........but how would they cope in the S14??
    Well I must say Ben Hand has been a standout for the Brumbies... I think given a full preseason they would do OK and some like Ben, Kimlin and Alexander will shine…

    Unless they get a go they can never be tier 1 players...

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    Immortal jargan83's Avatar
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    Just bite the bullet and give Melbourne a team, if there is no APC style tier of Rugby, odds are when a new team comes in it will possibly be struggle street for the Aussie Super 14 team regardless of timing.

    Like Andy said, the Force did poorly but after a season of pro-rugby environment (ie full time training) they came on nicely

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    Last edited by jargan83; 06-05-09 at 18:41.

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