What's an 18 year-old kid to do..

[TommyM]

I must say I found the tone of many of the comments in this thread disturbingly puritanical and slavish to the idea that the 'authorities' are always in the right, and that 'rule' of law must be be followed in any circumstances.


Let's look at the facts as we can deduce them:

1. James O'Connor was out on the Gold Coast and was apparently (according to him) involved in an attack by someone else to which he did not retaliate.

2. As is always the case when there is a fight in a club, the bouncers threw all parties out regardless of blame (ostensibly beacue they don't want any problems and are usually incapable of conducting any kind of investigation because 1. they can't concentrate because of the speed and steroids in their system and 2. they usually have an IQ of around 80.

3. He was told by the police to leave the area.

4. He could not get a taxi.

5. If I read rightly he then entered another club, and was kicked out? of there and arrested by the police for not following their earlier directive.

A couple of points to consider:

1. He had every right to feel outraged at being kicked out of the first club in the first place considering he had done nothing worng, indeed had acted admirably in not retaliating to the attack.

2. What right do the police have to force a private citizen to leave a public area when they have committed no crime? This is the arbitrary application of power by police probably not much older than James himself, and he could quite rightly feel it grossly unfair (BTW- In my experience the IQ comment above proably apply to the police involved as well if they are anything like WA). Nevertheless, by all accounts he DID actually try to leave, but could not get a taxi.

3. OK- what does he do now. If I were in that position, I would say- Well, I feel I have been treated unfairly. I can't get out of the area. If I just go into another club and stay out of trouble I'll be fine and can enjoy my evening like planned and as I feel I should be able. From this point we don't know what happened (whether the police followed him in or what, but we should not prejudge that he committed some further 'offence' necessarily.

The assertions by some in this thread that they have been drunk out in public and never got into any trouble with the police and therefore anybody who does is automatically guilty is ludicrous and the kind of attitude not out of place in McCarthy's crusade or the courts of Salem.

As a victim of just that kind of arbitrary police and bouncer treatment in my younger days (and I promise I am not anything like a trouble-maker), I can assure you that it occurs very regularly. Indeed in my case, I was targeted by police because (indicated by their actual comments) I was from a private school. In James OC's case it is EXTREMELY likely that at least one if not all of the cops/bouncers recognised who he was (he was just after all made the youngest Wallaby in modern history). If so they might unfairly target him either just because he was famous or perhaps even because he is a Queenslander now playing in Perth. Perhaps not, but who knows?!

The point is that as long as someone in a uniform or with a bouncers tag around their neck says somone's been naughty, some seem to automatically presume them guilty until proven otherwise rather than the other way around. I think this is a disturbing trend that has developed in Australian society and seemingly within some of the members of this site.

One last point:

Actually now that i think about it, i remember seeing Josh Valantine in a fight in the Brisbane Valley a few years back, a big fight broke out and he jumped in, but he walked away before the cops broke it up. Maybe Josh can give JOC some lessons..

TOCC- your logic seems to be that James O'Connor, who was attacked and then did NOT retaliate, somehow acted in a way that was less desirable and honourable than someone who leapt into a fight he was not involved in and managed to escape.... Bizarre logic, not in keeping with your otherwise puritanical comments and for mine discredits anything you have to say on this topic.

[TOCC]

must say I found the tone of many of the comments in this thread disturbingly puritanical and slavish to the idea that the 'authorities' are always in the right, and that 'rule' of law must be be followed in any circumstances.

Let's look at the facts as we can deduce them:

1. James O'Connor was out on the Gold Coast and was apparently (according to him) involved in an attack by someone else to which he did not retaliate.

2. As is always the case when there is a fight in a club, the bouncers threw all parties out regardless of blame (ostensibly beacue they don't want any problems and are usually incapable of conducting any kind of investigation because 1. they can't concentrate because of the speed and steroids in their system and 2. they usually have an IQ of around 80.

you say 'lets look at the facts', yet you then make some stupid stereotypical comment about bouncers being on the roids and stupid...

3. He was told by the police to leave the area.

4. He could not get a taxi.

5. If I read rightly he then entered another club, and was kicked out? of there and arrested by the police for not following their earlier directive.

A couple of points to consider:

1. He had every right to feel outraged at being kicked out of the first club in the first place considering he had done nothing worng, indeed had acted admirably in not retaliating to the attack.

2. What right do the police have to force a private citizen to leave a public area when they have committed no crime? This is the arbitrary application of power by police probably not much older than James himself, and he could quite rightly feel it grossly unfair (BTW- In my experience the IQ comment above proably apply to the police involved as well if they are anything like WA). Nevertheless, by all accounts he DID actually try to leave, but could not get a taxi.

how about you read my comment from before, regardless of whether he started the fight or not, which the police would not have known, the safest option is to remove both parties, if you remove one there is a chance the other guys friends may come back or the other party involved may return and carry it on, with one of them being seriously injured.

How are the police to know who started the crime, because some 18yr old is saying it was the other guy... yeah right, i havent heard that one before.

your comments about the age and IQ of the police actually says a lot about you

3. OK- what does he do now. If I were in that position, I would say- Well, I feel I have been treated unfairly. I can't get out of the area. If I just go into another club and stay out of trouble I'll be fine and can enjoy my evening like planned and as I feel I should be able. From this point we don't know what happened (whether the police followed him in or what, but we should not prejudge that he committed some further 'offence' necessarily.

"we should not prejudge".... that comment is fucken hilarious considering all the other shit you have just said in this post

As a victim of just that kind of arbitrary police and bouncer treatment in my younger days (and I promise I am not anything like a trouble-maker), I can assure you that it occurs very regularly. Indeed in my case, I was targeted by police because (indicated by their actual comments) I was from a private school. In James OC's case it is EXTREMELY likely that at least one if not all of the cops/bouncers recognised who he was (he was just after all made the youngest Wallaby in modern history). If so they might unfairly target him either just because he was famous or perhaps even because he is a Queenslander now playing in Perth. Perhaps not, but who knows?!

haha, im not even going to go into this one

The point is that as long as someone in a uniform or with a bouncers tag around their neck says somone's been naughty, some seem to automatically presume them guilty until proven otherwise rather than the other way around. I think this is a disturbing trend that has developed in Australian society and seemingly within some of the members of this site.

he was told to move on, like i said previously when you are told in surfers to 'move on' this means leave the area, which is explained to you at the time.. JOC did not, hence he was arrested, just because he couldnt get a cab doesnt mean shit, he could have walked one block and stood on the corner waiting for his friend to pick him up

TOCC- your logic seems to be that James O'Connor, who was attacked and then did NOT retaliate, somehow acted in a way that was less desirable and honourable than someone who leapt into a fight he was not involved in and managed to escape.... Bizarre logic, not in keeping with your otherwise puritanical comments and for mine discredits anything you have to say on this topic.

are you kiddin me?
at no point does my logic point to that, all i am doing is giving my input on the situation like everyone else, i thought i would since i have being in almost the exact same situation on a night out in Surfers Paradise, i dont imagine anyone else on this forum has hence why i went into detail.

Interpret that as you like, but you are contradicting what i am saying, at no point did i insinuate that JOC acted in a less desirable and less honourable than someone who would have got into a fight, which would seem to go against my 'otherswise puritanical comments' anyway..

the Valantine comment was obviously made toungue in cheek, but if that went over your head then well im sorry, but im not going to explain everything i say.


Dont misintrepet what i am saying as being derogatory towards the Western Force or James O'Connor, i seemed to have hit a nerve with what i have said, not that i give a shit either way but you shouldnt get so defensive about crap like this, save my time by not writing such long winded responses as well next time, i dont like reading dribble.

after reading these comments, i dont think its either the bouncers or the police IQ's which should be called into questione

[.X.]

Some quick questions for TommyM

Do you have your private school emblem/logo/coat of arms tattooed on your forehead?

Do you as a rule go out to nightclubs wearing your old school tie to pick up chicks?

Do you have a special ID that you use to get in to clubs that details your schooling as well as the number of days you are over the age of 18?


Having worked with Bouncers for 5 years in Penrith NSW never once have I heard such a diatribe. Please TommyM take your privately schooled hand off yourself. The Bouncers werent out to get you because you went to a private school - they were out to get you for the same reason they are out to get everyone else that they throw out of bars and clubs - because you are a dickhead when you are under the influence of alcohol and other substances, and you are ruining the night for other patrons. Thats it - no more, no less.

Bouncers are big lazy bastards and would rather talk to each other or a chick or find a chair to sit down in and eat more food. The last thing that they ever want to do is go in to a confrontation.

Here endeth the lesson.

[Cowboy]

Sounds to me like TommyM is much smarter than the police and the bouncers and if he thinks that he has done nothing wrong then everyone else's opinion counts for nothing. Much easier to just tell yourself "they are picking on me because I went to a private school and they know that I am better than they are."

If you can't walk away from somewhere people gather to socialise and have a good time because your behaviour was no longer in the spirit that is acceptable there, be it your fault or not, then you should really ask yourself why can't I. It's a rather small unfairness to have to accept.

[TommyM]

First off- TOCC (The Officious Cock Consumer?)- don't read this as it doesn't relate to you and you have made it clear that anything that is too long or requires complex thought is too much for you. BTW Your response seems to indicate that you are still smarting from me calling you a coprophage...

For others, the following story is merely to highlight the potential for injustice to occur if the ideology that TOCC, Jargs etc adhere to is followed i.e that if someone falls foul of the police they are automatically in the wrong and should accept that fact. It BEARS ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE to the J O'C Case, except to point out that I believe we are wrong to prejudge someone in a situation such as this.

Some quick questions for TommyM

Do you have your private school emblem/logo/coat of arms tattooed on your forehead?

Do you as a rule go out to nightclubs wearing your old school tie to pick up chicks?

I'll just quickly respond to this and then that's me for this topic as I have no interest in a protracted debate about justice and prejudice in this forum.

No Exile, I do not "have my private school emblem/logo/coat of arms tattooed on your forehead?" In fact, at the time I was wearing my school leavers jumper as I was on my first nightof leavers on Rottnest. In the case in question, I went to the aid of a girlfriend who was being charged with street drinking by a young policewoman when in fact she was within the fence of a a privately rented unit. I was subsequently frog-marched down to the police station by her and a male officer. Upon failing to find out what I was actually being charged with, I asked to see the officer in charge. When he arrived, he asked me if I was from a private school, and when I replied in the affirmative, commented, "Oh yeah? Spoit little brat hey?" When I intimated that if I was arrested for merely the place of my schooling that this could lead to serious legal problems for the officers involved down the line (ie threatened to sue them), I was charged with using 'indecent abusive language' and ordered to be off the island by 9am.

The next morning I organised a meeting with the chief of police, the head ranger on the island and the two officers involved. I brought along 6 witnesses all who saw me being arrested, but who were not admitted to provide evidence. When questioned, the officers claimed that I had been violent and abusive, calling them 'f&%king pigs' and that I had thrown a chair in the police station. I could see that the Chief of Police on the island clearly did not believe them (they were not his officers but brought over from the mainland), but he said he had no choice but to accept their testimony. As such I was forced to leave the island with a $90 fine.

Now if I were James O'Connor, the next day's headlines would have screamed "Wild Wallaby in Violent Clash with Police Thrown Off Island!" TOCC, Jargs and others like them would have screamed that it was a disgrace and I should be dropped and stripped of everything I had achieved. Of course the truth was nothing like that had occurred. Subsequently the charge was dropped after 'further investigations'. For me though, the damage was done- not in my case a sullying of my reputation, but rather the spoiling of my leavers' week.

Again, I only include this story to answer Exile's question and perhaps suggest that we should not be so quick to condemn someone who may (and indeed in my opinion appears to) have done nothing wrong, and yet have 'fallen foul' of the authorities.

PS Agree with whoever previously questioned why it is that we expect sportmen to be pinnacles of moral virtue simply because they are good athletes cf.musicians, actors etc. but that's for another thread...

[jono]

are we STILL going on about this?

[TOCC]

First off- TOCC (The Officious Cock Consumer?)- don't read this as it doesn't relate to you and you have made it clear that anything that is too long or requires complex thought is too much for you. BTW Your response seems to indicate that you are still smarting from me calling you a coprophage...

haha, apparently you didnt understand what i was saying, what i said was actually the opposite of what you think i like to read(i know its difficult to keep up sometimes). i dont mind reading stuff which is long, but i dont like reading tedious drivel, which seems to be your language of choice.
as for the coprohage comment, well until you brought that up i had forgotten about it, to be honest i dont really pay attention as to whom im talking to, the context of the conversation at the time is really all that matters, holding a grudge over a internet chat forum would seem a little trivial wouldnt it? you seem to know more on the subject anyway....

For others, the following story is merely to highlight the potential for injustice to occur if the ideology that TOCC, Jargs etc adhere to is followed i.e that if someone falls foul of the police they are automatically in the wrong and should accept that fact. It BEARS ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE to the J O'C Case, except to point out that I believe we are wrong to prejudge someone in a situation such as this.

-insert long winded 'the world is against me' story-

Again, I only include this story to answer Exile's question and perhaps suggest that we should not be so quick to condemn someone who may (and indeed in my opinion appears to) have done nothing wrong, and yet have 'fallen foul' of the authorities.

wow, you really got my heart to flutter for a split second there..

But, just because you were allegedly unfairly dealt with, doesnt mean that everyone else who gets in trouble is in the same situation, and if we get back to the topic at hand which is about JOC, what he did and what his manager said he did is in fact breaking the law.

Its as simple as that, his manager told the events of the night and what he did was in fact breaking the law, regardless of the fight which was the catalyst for the following events, he did not 'move on' like he was told to, hence he broke the law.

Surfers Paradise police use the 'move on' laws commonly because there are so many fights and arguments, with stabbings, bashings and glassings happening all the time. Its the nature of the area, everyone goes there to holiday and let there hair down(thats a figure of speech TommyM), with lots of young bloke getting too carefree and getting themselves in bad situations.

Now im not saying thats what happened to JOC, Im saying that because thats the reasons for the strong enforcement of those laws, its designed to help people avoid any further trouble.

[.X.]

I went to the aid of a girlfriend who was being charged with street drinking by a young policewoman when in fact she was within the fence of a a privately rented unit. I was subsequently frog-marched down to the police station by her and a male officer. Upon failing to find out what I was actually being charged with, I asked to see the officer in charge. When he arrived, he asked me if I was from a private school, and when I replied in the affirmative, commented, "Oh yeah? Spoit little brat hey?" When I intimated that if I was arrested for merely the place of my schooling that this could lead to serious legal problems for the officers involved down the line (ie threatened to sue them), I was charged with using 'indecent abusive language' and ordered to be off the island by 9am.

The next morning I organised a meeting with the chief of police, the head ranger on the island and the two officers involved. I brought along 6 witnesses all who saw me being arrested, but who were not admitted to provide evidence. When questioned, the officers claimed that I had been violent and abusive, calling them 'f&%king pigs' and that I had thrown a chair in the police station. I could see that the Chief of Police on the island clearly did not believe them (they were not his officers but brought over from the mainland), but he said he had no choice but to accept their testimony. As such I was forced to leave the island with a $90 fine.

So - just so I understand this right - you approached a Officer of the law proceeded to be a smartarse as all drunk kids are - especially those ones from a private school. Threatened to sue the police officers for hurting your sensibilities and you were shocked that you were forced to leave the island.

The next morning you had the innate ability - was that from the private school education, or from the threatened legal suit - to arrange a meeting with the Chief of Police, Rangers et all. You dragged along 6 mates so the police officers knew you meant business. Tommy, your ability to read the Police Chiefs mind, is that a course you take at the private school. or just another ability you have.

Here is my question - the law suit is still pending? or because you were only fined $90 you put that on your American Express Card to get the frequent flyer points?

you were obviously wrongly charged - otherwise why convene such a meeting of high powered police officers, rangers and not to mention the 6 recent graduates of the states fine private educational system. When do you get your $90 back?

Did you spend the night in cells? Did you cry for your mum?

[TOCC]

dont even bother, someone has a chip on the shoulder because they were fined $90 for being a drunken wreck, welcome to the real world champ, its not all fun and games.

please dont sue me for saying that....

[brokendown gunfighter]

and all is well with the world





merry Christmas everyone

[Cowboy]

Now if I were James O'Connor, the next day's headlines would have screamed "Wild Wallaby in Violent Clash with Police Thrown Off Island!" TOCC, Jargs and others like them would have screamed that it was a disgrace and I should be dropped and stripped of everything I had achieved. Of course the truth was nothing like that had occurred. Subsequently the charge was dropped after 'further investigations'. For me though, the damage was done- not in my case a sullying of my reputation, but rather the spoiling of my leavers' week.

Again, I only include this story to answer Exile's question and perhaps suggest that we should not be so quick to condemn someone who may (and indeed in my opinion appears to) have done nothing wrong, and yet have 'fallen foul' of the authorities.

PS Agree with whoever previously questioned why it is that we expect sportmen to be pinnacles of moral virtue simply because they are good athletes cf.musicians, actors etc. but that's for another thread...

I don't think that anyone here is suggesting that he should be dropped or stripped of anything that he has achieved. The only thing that I have read into the comments is that yes he has done something wrong, however it is very minor, he should cop whatever punishment our justice sytem hands him on the chin, and that it really should not be newsworthy but unfortunately it is considered to be. Hopefully JO'C won't have any other brainfades off the field as the Force have had enough bad publicity and I think we are all sick of it.

In your own example the police didn't act particularly well. The thing you should try to remember is that you can only control your own behaviour, from reading the story it sounds like you did everything possible to escalate the conflict. Try to remember that the police are people to, doing a difficult job and deserve our respect. My family has it's own stories of when police officer A did X and it was unfair. However I always remember what the police officers who attended my mothers fatal road accident did for her, one of her closest friends (also deceased) and subsequently for our respective grieving families. In that context it's relatively easy to overlook the little things.

Enjoy Christmas.

[jargan83]

I don't exactly remember saying he should be stripped of anything?? I am not going to debate the finer points of the law with you, you can take that up with the Queesnland State Government or the Gold Coast City Council. BUt I have noticed that the in most if not all major centres these days that the Police have the power to ask someone to move on, if you think that this Facist or totalitarian take your hissy fit elsewhere.

The point was that he was given a move on notice, and did not listen to it. Therefore demonstrating a lack of repect to a LAWFULL INSTRUCTION. It did not matter that he did not start the fight, I have seen this happen many a time here in Northbridge. You have missed the point of Tocc's post completely and chosen to slag him off personally

While we're throwing around pointless stories, i will throw a hypothetcial out there:

Bloke starts a fight with James O'Connor, bouncers break it up, bloke who starts the fight is arrested and police tell JO'C to carry on. Mates of the person who was arrested bump into JO'C later on in the evening and decide to get some revenge for the events earlier in the evening, beat the crap out of him amd do a runner.

What song would you be singing if that happened? Lucky for everyone concerned it is only a hypothetical

I love your commet about the IQ of the Police, an insult to many of my friends (i know about 18 police officers all up Serving and Retired). I had to show one of those said friends that comment at the beach on my mobile this arvo, she had a good laugh. She must be really stupid to have completed a Law degree

As a victim of just that kind of arbitrary police and bouncer treatment in my younger days (and I promise I am not anything like a trouble-maker), I can assure you that it occurs very regularly. Indeed in my case, I was targeted by police because (indicated by their actual comments) I was from a private school.

I'm interested to know when your on a night out, how the Police know your from a Private School. I assume you weren't wearing your uniform out on the town? So how do the Police know to make comments about you being from a private school?? DIt they use the Force to rech into your mind?

In fact, at the time I was wearing my school leavers jumper as I was on my first nightof leavers on Rottnest. In the case in question, I went to the aid of a girlfriend who was being charged with street drinking by a young policewoman when in fact she was within the fence of a a privately rented unit. I was subsequently frog-marched down to the police station by her and a male officer. Upon failing to find out what I was actually being charged with, I asked to see the officer in charge. When he arrived, he asked me if I was from a private school, and when I replied in the affirmative, commented, "Oh yeah? Spoit little brat hey?" When I intimated that if I was arrested for merely the place of my schooling that this could lead to serious legal problems for the officers involved down the line (ie threatened to sue them), I was charged with using 'indecent abusive language' and ordered to be off the island by 9am.

The next morning I organised a meeting with the chief of police, the head ranger on the island and the two officers involved. I brought along 6 witnesses all who saw me being arrested, but who were not admitted to provide evidence. When questioned, the officers claimed that I had been violent and abusive, calling them 'f&%king pigs' and that I had thrown a chair in the police station. I could see that the Chief of Police on the island clearly did not believe them (they were not his officers but brought over from the mainland), but he said he had no choice but to accept their testimony. As such I was forced to leave the island with a $90 fine.

Let's see.........................6 teenagers who were on the piss the night before vs Sober Police officers? Tough choice there

This also clearly demonstrates that you have a chip on your shoulder regarding Police or people of Authority

And I'm sure when you told that to your mummy and daddy they believed you

(There is no rank of chief in the WA Police Force http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_police_ranks)

2. What right do the police have to force a private citizen to leave a public area when they have committed no crime? This is the arbitrary application of power by police probably not much older than James himself, and he could quite rightly feel it grossly unfair (BTW- In my experience the IQ comment above proably apply to the police involved as well if they are anything like WA). Nevertheless, by all accounts he DID actually try to leave, but could not get a taxi.

THE LAW?? (see above comment about hissy fits)

The wonderfull excuse of "I couldn't get a cab sir". Fine the cops can give him a ride home

The assertions by some in this thread that they have been drunk out in public and never got into any trouble with the police and therefore anybody who does is automatically guilty is ludicrous and the kind of attitude not out of place in McCarthy's crusade or the courts of Salem.

That was my favourite part

It's not that hard and it doesn't take a private school education to see when:

A. Trouble is brewing

B. To avoid said Trouble

C. Not to be a smart ass prick and start the trouble yourself

Even when something unexpected starts it is very easy to avoid trouble. I have never been pinged for by the police or a bouncer. On a few rare occasions a bouncer has had a word in my ear but nothing to stressfull. I guess your counter will be that because I know so many Police Officers etc etc etc

I extend you an invtite to come out with me and my mates the next time you are in Perth

I think I have covered everything, everyone else I think covered the rest.

I had better run off, me and my mates are heading out to get drunk and start shit with randoms and abuse Police Officers

[The Man]

Get him to live with David Pocock...problem solved!