Where is professional rugby going?

[KenyaQuin]

Where is professional rugby going?
Monday 17th March 2008 Where is professional rugby going? - Rugby News, Results, Fixtures and Features from Planet-Rugby.com

As the Six Nations draws to a close (and as Scotland return to the highlands to lick their wounds) We had a chinwag with former Scotland great Gavin Hastings, who has quite a lot to say on the current state of the game.

Hastings, among other things, is currently organising and ambassadoring the Golden Oldies World Rugby Festival in Edinburgh, scheduled for September 1-8, 2008.

Some 4,500+ visitors are anticipated for a tournament which all those of us who have played at coarse level would look forward to: a week of rugby, drinking, singing and inimitably good clean family rugby fun.

Teams from all over the world, from the Bahamas to the Cook Islands, are rocking up for the gala, but it is a sad and true fact that as the game grows ever more money and results oriented at the higher levels, the traditions in the levels below are being steadily eroded away. The lure of the lucre seeps downwards, contaminating the club game.

"Effectively the club scene in Scotland is now non-existent," said Hastings, in response to a question about the tangible lack of depth and development of international players.

"It is desperately sad, and I am hearing the same about Wales.

"How to rectify that is a big big challenge. I don't have a solution as to how or why, but somehow we have to get that back.

"However, the problem has to be addressed for a solution to be found. I think one big problem is that there is no clear line between professionalism and amateurism. It means some players leave, while others train that much harder... it can cause a division in clubs, and create an unpleasant atmosphere."

Hastings alluded to Scotland and Wales where, with the advent of the Magners League and regional rugby, the old clubs such as Hawick, Gala, and Boroughmuir in Scotland, and Llanelli, Swansea, and Cardiff in Wales, have been forced to play in semi-professional leagues.

But semi-professional is hardly a regulated terrain, and clubs are too eager to dream about the big-time, rather than remember the happiness of the days when money and success were not the principal drivers, as Hastings explained.

"Nowadays it is all so serious," he said.

"At the end of the day, the club game is not about engaging in the culture any more. The culture of the game changes as a result.

"There is no more singing, no more beers together after the game. This may not impact at the highest level, but the young players would be all the better for tasting that as they come through.

"The semi-professional aspect takes all the fun away. The strongest bastions of rugby culture left in the world are now in ex-pat teams in minor rugby-playing cultures - only there is the culture truly retained."

But how to solve this? Aside from the ex-pat sides referred to here, there is still one major rugby-plying country that is getting the balance better than most, according to Hastings.

"I think you could look at France for a good example of how to keep the game burgeoning," he said, with little hesitation.

"The culture in the regions is so geared to the game, with support from councils, from the regions (départements); it makes it a people's game. There is no exclusion to anyone.

"I saw when Edinburgh went to Toulouse: the Toulouse players still go out into town, they don't lose their roots or culture. They engage with the locals. It is maybe an area where we in the UK might not have got it right, where we have lost the spirit. Maybe it doesn't suit our 'professional' culture."

Which is where the Golden Oldies will come in...

"This is the spirit our tournament is trying to promote, " continued Hastings.

"We are anticipating some 4,500 people from some 20/30 nations, all here to play rugby and have fun. It's how it should be."

Gavin Hastings is Ambassador for the Golden Oldies World Rugby Festival (1-8 September, 2008), happening in Edinburgh, still seeking team entries for the world's premier over-35 social rugby event, please visit http://www.goldenoldiessports.com or phone Michael Scallon (Platinum One) on (+44) (0)131 623 1500 for further information.

Gavin Hastings was talking to Danny Stephens

[BLR]

Very relevant considering the plans O'Neill has been coming up with...soon we will have franchises the region of which you'd have no idea, and not much underneath that besides the most amateur of grades...

[fulvio sammut]

Gee, why does the expression "told you so" spring so readily to my mind?

[shasta]

Gee, why does the expression "told you so" spring so readily to my mind?

Maybe so, mate. But it was inevitable. We wouldn't have the Force here if it didn't happen. I'd predict you probably can't see a downside in that though.

[slomo]

where is professional rugby going? in europe its going to the highest bidder! $$$$

[hopep]

But the unasked question, Slomo, is "where is amatuer rugby going ?".
If that dies a slow death - then what props up the pros.

Look at WAFL, before the AFL went national, they could grab a bunch of WAFL players and give any Vic team a run for their money, especially in state foot.

The spirit of each rugby club is a precious thing that needs to be nurtured.
Thats one of the reasons the Sydney clubs are desperate to get into the professional field. they sense the change and can see club rugby becoming less important. We need to make an effort that that doesn't happen here in Perth. Support a local team AND the Force, AND any team that makes a regional comp when we get a new one.

[fulvio sammut]

On the contrary, Shasta, I can see a tremendous downside to the existence of the Force, as can every club rugby official or administrator, past or present. I have listed them on this site in various posts on many occasions.

That doesn't mean I don't get satisfaction watching the Force play, or don't appreciate the efforts of their players coaches and officials. Better our side wins than any other..

But the Force and the competion it represents is effectively destroying club rugby, as I knew and enjoyed it, at all sorts of levels. It is changing all but elite players from players to spectators and is increasing dramatically the running costs of even third division clubs by raising expectations which cannot possibly be met at club level.

Sorry, but I enjoyed taking part in second, third, fourth and even sixth grade games as a player more than I will ever enjoy watching the Force or even International games as a spectator.

As clubs die the death of a thousand cuts, I fear that form of enjoyment will not be available to my grandchildren, should I ever be blessed with them.

That's the real pity.

[slomo]

But the unasked question, Slomo, is "where is amatuer rugby going ?".
If that dies a slow death - then what props up the pros.

the support structure to identify young talent will stay in place and those players with the talent will be put in the relevant programmes. amateur sport will always be around, as people have jobs, families, and activities out side rugby,all they want to do is play socially, meet up with mates and have a game maybe attened trainning twice a week if you can be arsed, not everyone is good enough to play at the top level thats just a fact.........

[AndyS]

Sorry Fulv, are you saying that because someone plays the sport professionally, everyone else will just quit and watch?

[fulvio sammut]

What I am saying is that with the advent of professional franchises/super/elite clubs the amateur clubs are deprived of income and have financial demands put upon them by the better club level players. I have gone into how this happens as a result of professionalism in previous posts and won't do it again here.

When the income is exceeded by the outgoings, clubs reduce in size and eventually become unviable. As they disappear,the greater competition contracts.

There is less competitiveness for the remaining clubs and less interest amongst the remaining players. This leads to greater contraction.

The comptition becomes weaker and weaker and better "amateur" players can no longer be bothered to stay involved.

Eventually the competition folds. People who once played themselves now only go to see the professionals play.

Proper coaching is no longer as available for junior club players and the junior competition withers also. Again, less players come into the sport.

I'm not saying that this is the only inevitable result. I'm saying it's a likely result and is the path that is already commencing in WA, and without cooperation, leadership and sensible and appropriate decision making by people who recognise the risks at RugbyWA, it is going to progress futher and in fact snowball.

All I see from RugbyWA at present is starry eyed awe at the Force they have created, and the relegation of the club competition to a minor irritation which has to be endured for the time being until it fades away.

Nothing would make me happier than to be proved wrong.

[shasta]

On the contrary, Shasta, I can see a tremendous downside to the existence of the Force, as can every club rugby official or administrator, past or present.

I think you took me the wrong way. I said you probably couldn't see a down side if pro rugby didn't eventuate and ergo the Force. I did say I thought it was inevitable. What I didn't say is that I have the same misgivings you have about the possible demise of club rugby.

[shasta]

All I see from RugbyWA at present is starry eyed awe at the Force they have created, and the relegation of the club competition to a minor irritation which has to be endured for the time being until it fades away.

If that's the case then perhaps the way forward is for the pro franchises to be run as a corporation separate from the "ameteur unions". How anyone would manage to get the state unions to untangle themselves from the pro side of the sport and all the trappings of the gravy train that goes with it is another story. Theres a conference next week in NZ trying to address this problem and some articles about that in this thread

Kiwis hold forum to discuss way forward - Western Force Rugby Supporters Site

[beige]

If that's the case then perhaps the way forward is for the pro franchises to be run as a corporation separate from the "ameteur unions". How anyone would manage to get the state unions to untangle themselves from the pro side of the sport and all the trappings of the gravy train that goes with it is another story.

51% owned by the union, 49% owned privately? (I didn't put any thought into that btw...)