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Thread: New Western Force campaign backs fans to take ownership

  1. #16
    Veteran Sheikh's Avatar
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    IIRC, RA loaned the IP back to RugbyWA. So I've always been a little apprehensive of calling the Perth team in the IPRC/WSR the 'Force', as it's still owned by RA and they may try to hold the name for ransom, assuming that Forrest will pay $50 million for it.

    Remember, that an IP is apparently worth $1, because that's what the Rebel's was sold for!

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  2. #17
    Legend Contributor blueandblack's Avatar
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    IPRC/WSR have that covered because they have Perth Force and Aussie Force.

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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIGS20 View Post
    I'm not sure what you're driving at Fulvio, but that sounds (albeit laced with a fair amount of your traditional glass half empty cynicism) about right.

    Personally, I think this is a pretty savvy move by Minderoo. It achieves several very good things
    Ensures that the Force
    • maintains it's Community connection
    • Adds to the buy in from the regular punter
    • Frees Minderoo up to undertake the business of building a competition in a few short months
    • removes the accusation that Force will be unduly favoured in the new competition over teams that aren't owned by the competition organisers.



    I guess there are some bad things, like the fact that Force doesn't own it's IP, that's on loan from RA to RugbyWA and then transferred to Minderoo for the purposes of running the Force professional arm. the corporate paperwork must be more tangled than PRaetorian by now and it seems that the Force has been bounced around a bunch of owners, this would have to make the structure and goals of the operation pretty unclear.

    But, I think most of the bad stuff could be overcome as long as people are keen to work together and not seek temporary advantage and the good stuff is worth chasing.

    Just don't let Rat's Arse anywhere near it.........
    I heard Twiggy say last week, something along the lines of he wanted to give the Force back to the fans at some point in the future. I cannot remember his exact words.

    I thought at the time, that was to overcome the conflict of owning both the WSR and one of the teams playing in the WSR.

    I think any share scheme for fans and and others is to provide working capital for the Force going forward, and not to pay Twiggy or RA.
    Although technically still own the name Western Force, Minderoo registered the name "Perth Force" about 9 months ago. So if RA play hard ball there is an optional name.

    I do not believe Twiggy will ever let the fall over.

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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSJ View Post
    I heard Twiggy say last week, something along the lines of he wanted to give the Force back to the fans at some point in the future. I cannot remember his exact words.

    I thought at the time, that was to overcome the conflict of owning both the WSR and one of the teams playing in the WSR.

    I think any share scheme for fans and and others is to provide working capital for the Force going forward, and not to pay Twiggy or RA.
    Although technically still own the name Western Force, Minderoo registered the name "Perth Force" about 9 months ago. So if RA play hard ball there is an optional name.

    I do not believe Twiggy will ever let the fall over.
    Couple of typos above. Should be:
    Although technically the RA still own the name Western Force, Minderoo registered the name "Perth Force" about 9 months ago. So if RA play hard ball there is an optional name.

    I do not believe Twiggy will ever let the Force fall over.[/QUOTE]

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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by fulvio sammut View Post
    I'm trying to get my head around this, and an appreciation of what is being intended to be achieved.

    The current position, as I understand it, is that Minderoo, Forrest's company, owns all rights to the Force and to World Series Rugby (WSR).

    Mindaroo acquired the Force from RugbyWA after it was released back to RugbyWA by Rugby Australia (RA), having been removed from the Super Rugby competition.

    Mindaroo took over what was left of the Force entity from RugbyWA's Administrators (or from RugbyWA, I could not understand this bit), RugbyWA having a substantial debt owing to RA over legal costs which it could not repay.

    In any event, Mindaroo or the Administrators fixed the debt situation with RA, Mindaroo paid RugbyWA some working capital, and took over the lease of RugbyWA headquarters, sub letting part of the premises back to RugbyWA.

    At this point therefore, Mindaroo owned the Force, RugbyWA had no significant debts, and was responsible only for running the local club competitions, and Mindaroo went on with its own business of getting the Force up and running again, and developing the WSR concept.

    Now Mindaroo (or somebody) is flying the concept that its wholly owned Force be sold or transfered to another yet to be defined entity as a "Club", to be (presumably) entirely independent of Mindaroo but playing in the WSR competition.

    To that end it is proposed (I think) that there be a public float of the new entity and that some "serious" heavyweights of rugby in WA (who were involved in the initial Force concept in 2004) be involved as part of a community group to run with the public listing, presumably injecting some capital of their own, and/or their extensive experience. RugbyWA as a body will not be involved unless if by Council resolution they seek to invest in the float.

    Have I got it right so far?
    Fulvio,

    The ARU cancelled the Force licence and eliminated the Force from the Super Rugby Comp. the ARU had bought the I.P. back in 2016 to bail us out and to work with us being the first cab off the rank to start the CENTRALISED system, hence the Alliance.

    ARU won the court cases and then billed RugbyWa for the legal costs so we went into VA. Korda Mentha negotiated with the 3 major parties owed lots of money, WA Govt., Lavan and the ARU, All three wrote off debts so RugbyWA came out of VA.


    ARU still owned and still owns the Force I.P. but there was no team.
    Minderoo had zero involvement in VA, even though the ARU suggested they pick up the legal debt. You can imagine Andrew's reply.


    So, Minderoo decided to start a new comp. and create a new professional team for WA. At one stage, because the ARU agreed to allow RugbyWa to continue in the NRC and RugbyWa owns the Perth Spirit I.P. the new Professional team could have been called the Perth Spirit or any other name in fact.


    RugbyWA asked for the Force I.P. back - ARU wanted $850K, we said it was worth $850K back in 2016 when they bought it from us, but now they have trashed it, it is worth $1.00. I think the analogy used was "we sold you a Ferrari, you've pranged it and written it of and you want WHAT for it??"

    So, they still have the Force I.P. on their books and have leased it to RugbyWa for $1.00 and RugbyWa in turn have leased it to Minderoo for $1.00 for 99 years or whatever!!!

    Since the Force name resonated in WA, Minderoo decided to call their Professional team the Western Force.

    Hope this answers your questions.

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    Last edited by Hansie; 06-08-18 at 17:44. Reason: spelling

  6. #21
    Champion SPaRTAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueandblack View Post
    IPRC/WSR have that covered because they have Perth Force and Aussie Force.
    What about just "the Force" or just "Force", who owns that?

    Most people just refer to the Force, not Western Force, these days anyway.

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  7. #22
    Champion SPaRTAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hansie View Post
    Fulvio,

    The ARU cancelled the Force licence and eliminated the Force from the Super Rugby Comp. the ARU had bought the I.P. back in 2016 to bail us out and to work with us being the first cab off the rank to start the CENTRALISED system, hence the Alliance.

    ARU won the court cases and then billed RugbyWa for the legal costs so we went into VA. Korda Mentha negotiated with the 3 major parties owed lots of money, WA Govt., Lavan and the ARU, All three wrote off debts so RugbyWA came out of VA.


    ARU still owned and still owns the Force I.P. but there was no team.
    Minderoo had zero involvement in VA, even though the ARU suggested they pick up the legal debt. You can imagine Andrew's reply.


    So, Minderoo decided to start a new comp. and create a new professional team for WA. At one stage, because the ARU agreed to allow RugbyWa to continue in the NRC and RugbyWa owns the Perth Spirit I.P. the new Professional team could have been called the Perth Spirit or any other name in fact.


    RugbyWA asked for the Force I.P. back - ARU wanted $850K, we said it was worth $850K back in 2016 when they bought it from us, but now they have trashed it, it is worth $1.00. I think the analogy used was "we sold you a Ferrari, you've pranged it and written it of and you want WHAT for it??"

    So, they still have the Force I.P. on their books and have leased it to RugbyWa for $1.00 and RugbyWa in turn have leased it to Minderoo for $1.00 for 99 years or whatever!!!

    Since the Force name resonated in WA, Minderoo decided to call their Professional team the Western Force.

    Hope this answers your questions.
    Wow!! 99 years.. I almost sprayed my can of coke all over the desk reading that!! Hahaha does that mean if the ARU/RA wanted their IP back tomorrow the answer would be "sorry mate we actually on-leased it for 99 years so its available then" or could they snatch it back like the mongrel thieves they are

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  8. #23
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    Two things.

    - Senator Reynolds recommended in her report delivery speech that it will be sold back to Rugby WA for $1 as that was what the Rebels are worth. Meow.
    - The RA recommended an Alliance Agreement to the Brumbies without sale of IP. The RA backed off as they realised that the Brumbies were going to make a profit after actually bothering their arses to go to Canberra rather than believe the bullshít written in the Sydney press. The RA using the Force as a test case for centralisation was a misleading pack of lies.

    I suggest anyone to read the steaming pile of effluent from Anthony French in Submission 13 from the Inquiry to justify the board to axe a side. There was a lot of bs written about the Brumbies and Force to stitch those sides up with very little written about the constant mismanagement at the Reds and Rebels that the board believed. Very little to nothing mentioned about the unbudgeted funds that the Rebels drained from the RA. I am very surprised that this report wasn't destroyed by the Committee and Anthony French should have been hauled in as a witness on the same night as the disgraced Chairman who has been accused of trying to shut down the Inquiry while in the halls of Parliament.

    The difference between the Brumbies and the Force was that the Brumbies have protected themselves from the axe or Sydney press driven relocation/merger from day one.

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  9. #24
    Rookie cedric rainwater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPaRTAN View Post
    What about just "the Force" or just "Force", who owns that?

    Most people just refer to the Force, not Western Force, these days anyway.
    hope they keep a name that includes 'force'.
    i don't want to have to learn the words to another song.

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    cider my arse

  10. #25
    Legend Contributor Alison's Avatar
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    The debt to the WA Government was NOT written off as part of the VA settlement. The WA Government did, however, agree to extend the period of the loan to Nov 2019. This enabled RWA to exit VA. The debt owed to the WA Government is $1.5million.

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  11. #26
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    Ali, How can RugbyWA owe money to the WA Gov when the ARU owned the Force? They should be the ones paying back the money or the Gov should be suing RA not giving them money!

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  12. #27
    Legend Contributor Alison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perth Girl View Post
    Ali, How can RugbyWA owe money to the WA Gov when the ARU owned the Force? They should be the ones paying back the money or the Gov should be suing RA not giving them money!
    The debt was incurred before the Alliance Agreement was entered into and was in the name of RWA. Also, the ARU only owned the licence for the Force to operate as a SuperRugby franchise. They did not own the legal entity itself, although the staff and players were all made employees of the ARU and paid by the ARU. It’s also important to note that the Force and RWA were the same legal entity until it exited from VA and Andrew Forrest stepped in to resurrect the Force under his Minderoo umbrella.

    I haven’t heard anything further about the WA Government commencing legal action against the ARU. I can only assume there was insufficient evidence to proceed. I guess only the Minister for Sport or the Premier can shed light on that.

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  13. #28
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    I doubt that Rugby WA will be able to pay off that debt as they don't get an income really

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