Australian Rugby Union announce $9.19 million turnaround

[Cowboy]

Why is it the CEO takes all the blame for decisions and no responsibility is attributed to the ARU board?
I'm undecided about JO'N, he doesn't appear to be a good builder of the buisness, but appears to be competent at cutting losses.
At least he is competent at something, unlike his predecessor.

[travelling_gerry]

I see on the Rugby Club on Fox last night they were reporting a PROFIT of $9 million.

[TOCC]

All i will say further on this topic is, that at the end of 2003 Rugby Union in Australia was in a strong position, they had $35million in reserves, had a extremely marketable brand and was nipping at the heals of NRL in in terms of becoming the number 2 code.

In the time since JON has left, the ARU has lost $20million in reserves, has slipped a distant 4th behind the JON built A-League comp and has been stumbling over there feet in terms of onfield and off-field performances.

I see on the Rugby Club on Fox last night they were reporting a PROFIT of $9 million.

yes, as ive pointed out elsewhere, the ARU made a operating profit of $9.2million before handing out $8.5 to member unions, this is on top of the $4million to each S14 province.

Technically they did make a $9.2million profit, but $8.5 was sent to the member unions so its really only reported as a $700k real profit.

[travelling_gerry]

So technically RWA made a $2.7m profit but had to pay $1.9m to WAFC?

[Burgs]

Burgs, i actually expected a bit more then this

Its ludicours comparing the NZRU and ARU, they operate in completely different enviroments, its like comparing chalk and cheese.

As always you are right TOCC, let us investigate how ludicrous it is to compare the ARU rattling the tin can on the sidewalk situation with the seeming opulence of the NZRU coffers.

Category/Australia/New Zealand

Population/ 21,707,964/ 4,302,010

Labor force/11.21m / 2.26 m

Total Senior Male Rugby Union Players/ 36,370/28,850

Hosted World Cups/ 1 Professional/1 Amateur

GDP (millions of USD)/ 1,069,000/ 135,700

Individuals US$500m+/36 / 4

Billionaires/ 10/ 3

World Top 500 Companies/ 13/ 0 (Highest 1095, Aus 27 higher placed)

World Top 2000 Companies/ 50/ 2 (1095 & 1796)

Billionaires World Ranked:

Rank/Name/Citizenship/Age/Net Worth ($bil)/Residence

110 Graeme Hart New Zealand 53 4.5 New Zealand
234 Frank Lowy & family Australia 78 2.7 Australia
261 James Packer Australia 41 2.5 Australia
376 Gina Rinehart Australia 55 1.9 Australia
376 Andrew Forrest Australia 47 1.9 Australia
468 Harry Triguboff Australia 76 1.5 Australia
468 Richard Pratt Australia 74 1.5 Australia
647 Kerr Neilson Australia 59 1.1 Australia
647 John Gandel Australia 74 1.1 Australia
701 Kerry Stokes Australia 67 1.0 Australia
701 Lindsay Fox Australia 70 1.0 Australia
701 Christopher Chandler New Zealand 49 1.0 Dubai
701 Richard Chandler New Zealand 50 1.0 Singapore


The Global 2000

Rank/Company/Country/Industry/Sales ($bil)/Profits ($bil)/Assets ($bil)/Market Value ($bil)

83 BHP Billiton Australia/United Kingdom Materials 39.50 13.42 53.36 190.62
89 National Australia Bank Australia Banking 38.88 4.06 499.44 43.95
99 Commonwealth Bank Australia Banking 26.48 3.80 360.42 51.86
117 ANZ Banking Australia Banking 26.54 3.71 347.96 39.53
130 Westpac Banking Group Australia Banking 22.99 3.06 331.83 40.97
215 Telstra Australia Telecommunications Services 20.11 2.76 32.18 56.68
365 QBE Insurance Group Australia Insurance 10.06 1.69 34.61 18.71
390 Westfield Group Australia Diversified Financials 5.18 3.02 44.44 31.79
395 Woolworths Australia Food Markets 36.09 1.10 11.94 32.94
410 Macquarie Group Australia Diversified Financials 8.23 1.21 110.16 13.77
435 AMP Australia Diversified Financials 9.37 0.86 94.83 14.12
447 St George Bank Australia Banking 8.23 1.05 111.33 12.41
483 Suncorp-Metway Australia Diversified Financials 8.36 0.90 72.13 12.03
698 Wesfarmers Australia Conglomerates 8.21 0.67 10.26 19.25
719 Qantas Airways Australia Transportation 12.75 0.61 16.66 7.50
845 Woodside Petroleum Australia Oil & Gas Operations 3.16 1.11 8.35 36.70
882 Insurance Australia Group Australia Insurance 6.56 0.47 18.13 6.54
930 Stockland Australia Diversified Financials 0.96 1.46 11.64 9.57
971 Brambles Australia Business Services & Supplies 4.03 1.29 5.01 13.82
985 Toll Holdings Australia Transportation 6.35 1.09 6.47 6.18
994 Foster's Group Australia Food Drink & Tobacco 3.87 0.82 7.87 9.58
1007 Macquarie Airports Australia Transportation 2.87 0.93 21.21 5.64
1015 Origin Energy Australia Utilities 5.31 0.39 12.51 7.25
1024 Bluescope Steel Australia Materials 6.89 0.58 6.26 7.57
1044 Lend Lease Australia Diversified Financials 12.13 0.42 7.58 5.21
1055 Amcor Australia Materials 8.46 0.45 7.72 5.68
1081 GPT Group Australia Diversified Financials 0.79 1.06 12.24 6.28
1095 Telecom of New Zealand New Zealand Telecommunications Services 3.81 2.34 6.37 5.66
1246 Orica Australia Chemicals 4.90 0.43 5.30 8.46
1270 CSL Australia Drugs & Biotechnology 2.70 0.46 3.44 18.79
1344 Goodman Group Australia Diversified Financials 0.61 0.53 7.78 6.88
1353 Babcock & Brown Australia Diversified Financials 1.93 0.46 13.31 4.77
1465 Zinifex Australia Materials 1.64 1.13 3.08 5.07
1468 AGL Energy Australia Utilities 3.20 0.35 11.99 4.55
1488 TabCorp Holdings Australia Hotels, Restaurants & Leisure 3.26 0.38 5.71 7.49
1496 Santos Australia Oil & Gas Operations 2.16 0.42 6.35 7.07
1500 Consolidated Media Australia Media 1.62 1.66 5.94 2.84
1585 CFS Retail Property Trust Australia Diversified Financials 0.43 0.95 5.42 4.48
1614 Seven Network Australia Media 0.86 1.38 2.76 2.41
1633 Fortescue Metals Group Australia Materials 0.00 -0.06 2.96 20.58
1685 ASX Australia Diversified Financials 0.46 0.25 8.09 6.73
1716 Newcrest Mining Australia Materials 1.32 0.06 3.49 16.14
1717 Challenger Financial Svcs Australia Diversified Financials 2.27 0.22 23.17 1.20
1786 Transurban Group Australia Transportation 0.43 -0.13 9.59 6.54
1796 Macquarie Office Trust Australia Diversified Financials 0.18 0.82 4.25 2.07
1796 Fletcher Building New Zealand Construction 4.58 0.37 3.37 3.85
1802 Coca-Cola Amatil Australia Food Drink & Tobacco 3.47 0.27 4.07 6.60
1879 Crown Australia Hotels, Restaurants & Leisure 1.50 0.23 6.41 7.38
1947 Mirvac Group Australia Diversified Financials 1.54 0.47 6.21 3.94
1949 Metcash Australia Food Markets 8.06 0.14 2.56 2.98
1973 Bank of Queensland Australia Banking 1.19 0.11 16.36 1.89
1975 Centro Properties Group Australia Diversified Financials 0.33 0.40 6.94 0.36

So yes, you are 100% correct.

It is totally ludicrous that the ARU is a break even proposition while the NZRU is able to boast a war chest of over $70m, before they have even hosted the major money spinner of a Pro World Cup.

It is ludicrous to think that the current business management of the ARU is being applauded for scrapping us past the bread line when they have access to so much extra investment and advertising potential than our Antipodean Cousins.

It is ludicrous to think that the NZRU have three levels of Provincial competition and we can’t even manage to have one.

It is ludicrous to think that the NZRU is able to have the All Blacks, the Junior All Blacks, the Maori All Blacks and a highly successful National Sevens unit when the ARU can just manage to get the underperforming Wallabies and an average performing Sevens team on the Park.

It is ludicrous to think that the NZRU can field five competitive franchises in Super Rugby, with fewer senior male players than Australia, while the ARU is barely capable of covering four.

It is ludicrous to think that the NZRU have a fully running professional Academy that Australian players pay money to attend while the ARU scrap plans to build our own in Queensland.

But most of all, I’ll tell you what is ludicrous, it is ludicrous to think that through all of this toe cutting, somehow JO’N is thought to be the greatest of great for simply putting an organisation into care and maintenance mode.
That takes no genius on a CEO’s part, any professional Executive could have made those decisions, especially with the excuse of the current economic climate.

A true leader, a CEO of the standing he is held up to be, would have found ways of building the ARU regardless and in spite of the current climate.
That was why he was pleaded with to come back, to help Australian Rugby charge forward despite the woes, because he was the only man for the job.

With fifty of the world’s biggest companies, ten (well, nine is you discount Footballs Lowy) billionaires and 7,520 more Senior Male Players than New Zealand at his disposal, he has achieved what?

ARS: Disbanded

APC: Disbanded

Australia A XV: Disbanded, compromising the integrity of the Regionally vital PNC

Wallabies: Player salary sacrifice, Bledisloe fixture moved off shore and record mid-career player losses to NH.

So TOCC, you tell me, why is it is ludicrous to make the comparison?
Is it because we are the chalk or because we are the cheese?
Is it because it’s downright embarrassing that a country of the significant global stature of Australia has a shambles called the ARU or because a relative minnow like New Zealand can be rightly proud of the NZRU institution?

And please someone, anyone, tell me just what these fantastic achievements of JO’N MkII are that justify him being held up as some untouchable beacon of light?

What exactly is it that he has done, during this period since returning from Football, as a professional Sporting CEO that ANY experienced Executive from ANY walk of business life wouldn’t or couldn’t have done themselves.

“Saving the ship” is one thing, going forward at the same time is entirely another and that, by any measure, has not been achieved under his second reign.

[Thequeerone]

Have patience - The financial success of the game in Australia will only be one measure of his success - and lets face facts it was going well into the red before he took over.

His next challenge seems to be to break the stranglehold of NSW on the game - they have got themselves into a bit of a pickle and seem to expect the ARU to bail them out and put up with their nonsense in the process - this attitude must be contained,

Then and only then can he implement a NATIONAL pathway (not NSW) for developing players, after all NSW effectively killed the ARC with their financial mismanagement only the Spirit broke even.

At the moment all players in the S14 seem to have being identified in schoolboys and given the necessary exposure/ development time to succeed - which seems unfair on the rest of the ruby playing world or they are poached from League.

[jargan83]

what percentage of total population do those playing numbers work out to?

And what are the playing numbers of other major sports in Australia and New Zealand?
Posted via Mobile Device

[TOCC]

As always you are right TOCC, let us investigate how ludicrous it is to compare the ARU rattling the tin can on the sidewalk situation with the seeming opulence of the NZRU coffers.

Category/Australia/New Zealand

Population/ 21,707,964/ 4,302,010

Labor force/11.21m / 2.26 m

Total Senior Male Rugby Union Players/ 36,370/28,850

Hosted World Cups/ 1 Professional/1 Amateur

GDP (millions of USD)/ 1,069,000/ 135,700

Individuals US$500m+/36 / 4

Billionaires/ 10/ 3

World Top 500 Companies/ 13/ 0 (Highest 1095, Aus 27 higher placed)

World Top 2000 Companies/ 50/ 2 (1095 & 1796)

Billionaires World Ranked:

Rank/Name/Citizenship/Age/Net Worth ($bil)/Residence

110 Graeme Hart New Zealand 53 4.5 New Zealand
234 Frank Lowy & family Australia 78 2.7 Australia
261 James Packer Australia 41 2.5 Australia
376 Gina Rinehart Australia 55 1.9 Australia
376 Andrew Forrest Australia 47 1.9 Australia
468 Harry Triguboff Australia 76 1.5 Australia
468 Richard Pratt Australia 74 1.5 Australia
647 Kerr Neilson Australia 59 1.1 Australia
647 John Gandel Australia 74 1.1 Australia
701 Kerry Stokes Australia 67 1.0 Australia
701 Lindsay Fox Australia 70 1.0 Australia
701 Christopher Chandler New Zealand 49 1.0 Dubai
701 Richard Chandler New Zealand 50 1.0 Singapore


The Global 2000

Rank/Company/Country/Industry/Sales ($bil)/Profits ($bil)/Assets ($bil)/Market Value ($bil)

83 BHP Billiton Australia/United Kingdom Materials 39.50 13.42 53.36 190.62
89 National Australia Bank Australia Banking 38.88 4.06 499.44 43.95
99 Commonwealth Bank Australia Banking 26.48 3.80 360.42 51.86
117 ANZ Banking Australia Banking 26.54 3.71 347.96 39.53
130 Westpac Banking Group Australia Banking 22.99 3.06 331.83 40.97
215 Telstra Australia Telecommunications Services 20.11 2.76 32.18 56.68
365 QBE Insurance Group Australia Insurance 10.06 1.69 34.61 18.71
390 Westfield Group Australia Diversified Financials 5.18 3.02 44.44 31.79
395 Woolworths Australia Food Markets 36.09 1.10 11.94 32.94
410 Macquarie Group Australia Diversified Financials 8.23 1.21 110.16 13.77
435 AMP Australia Diversified Financials 9.37 0.86 94.83 14.12
447 St George Bank Australia Banking 8.23 1.05 111.33 12.41
483 Suncorp-Metway Australia Diversified Financials 8.36 0.90 72.13 12.03
698 Wesfarmers Australia Conglomerates 8.21 0.67 10.26 19.25
719 Qantas Airways Australia Transportation 12.75 0.61 16.66 7.50
845 Woodside Petroleum Australia Oil & Gas Operations 3.16 1.11 8.35 36.70
882 Insurance Australia Group Australia Insurance 6.56 0.47 18.13 6.54
930 Stockland Australia Diversified Financials 0.96 1.46 11.64 9.57
971 Brambles Australia Business Services & Supplies 4.03 1.29 5.01 13.82
985 Toll Holdings Australia Transportation 6.35 1.09 6.47 6.18
994 Foster's Group Australia Food Drink & Tobacco 3.87 0.82 7.87 9.58
1007 Macquarie Airports Australia Transportation 2.87 0.93 21.21 5.64
1015 Origin Energy Australia Utilities 5.31 0.39 12.51 7.25
1024 Bluescope Steel Australia Materials 6.89 0.58 6.26 7.57
1044 Lend Lease Australia Diversified Financials 12.13 0.42 7.58 5.21
1055 Amcor Australia Materials 8.46 0.45 7.72 5.68
1081 GPT Group Australia Diversified Financials 0.79 1.06 12.24 6.28
1095 Telecom of New Zealand New Zealand Telecommunications Services 3.81 2.34 6.37 5.66
1246 Orica Australia Chemicals 4.90 0.43 5.30 8.46
1270 CSL Australia Drugs & Biotechnology 2.70 0.46 3.44 18.79
1344 Goodman Group Australia Diversified Financials 0.61 0.53 7.78 6.88
1353 Babcock & Brown Australia Diversified Financials 1.93 0.46 13.31 4.77
1465 Zinifex Australia Materials 1.64 1.13 3.08 5.07
1468 AGL Energy Australia Utilities 3.20 0.35 11.99 4.55
1488 TabCorp Holdings Australia Hotels, Restaurants & Leisure 3.26 0.38 5.71 7.49
1496 Santos Australia Oil & Gas Operations 2.16 0.42 6.35 7.07
1500 Consolidated Media Australia Media 1.62 1.66 5.94 2.84
1585 CFS Retail Property Trust Australia Diversified Financials 0.43 0.95 5.42 4.48
1614 Seven Network Australia Media 0.86 1.38 2.76 2.41
1633 Fortescue Metals Group Australia Materials 0.00 -0.06 2.96 20.58
1685 ASX Australia Diversified Financials 0.46 0.25 8.09 6.73
1716 Newcrest Mining Australia Materials 1.32 0.06 3.49 16.14
1717 Challenger Financial Svcs Australia Diversified Financials 2.27 0.22 23.17 1.20
1786 Transurban Group Australia Transportation 0.43 -0.13 9.59 6.54
1796 Macquarie Office Trust Australia Diversified Financials 0.18 0.82 4.25 2.07
1796 Fletcher Building New Zealand Construction 4.58 0.37 3.37 3.85
1802 Coca-Cola Amatil Australia Food Drink & Tobacco 3.47 0.27 4.07 6.60
1879 Crown Australia Hotels, Restaurants & Leisure 1.50 0.23 6.41 7.38
1947 Mirvac Group Australia Diversified Financials 1.54 0.47 6.21 3.94
1949 Metcash Australia Food Markets 8.06 0.14 2.56 2.98
1973 Bank of Queensland Australia Banking 1.19 0.11 16.36 1.89
1975 Centro Properties Group Australia Diversified Financials 0.33 0.40 6.94 0.36

So yes, you are 100% correct.

It is totally ludicrous that the ARU is a break even proposition while the NZRU is able to boast a war chest of over $70m, before they have even hosted the major money spinner of a Pro World Cup.

It is ludicrous to think that the current business management of the ARU is being applauded for scrapping us past the bread line when they have access to so much extra investment and advertising potential than our Antipodean Cousins.

It is ludicrous to think that the NZRU have three levels of Provincial competition and we can’t even manage to have one.

It is ludicrous to think that the NZRU is able to have the All Blacks, the Junior All Blacks, the Maori All Blacks and a highly successful National Sevens unit when the ARU can just manage to get the underperforming Wallabies and an average performing Sevens team on the Park.

It is ludicrous to think that the NZRU can field five competitive franchises in Super Rugby, with fewer senior male players than Australia, while the ARU is barely capable of covering four.

It is ludicrous to think that the NZRU have a fully running professional Academy that Australian players pay money to attend while the ARU scrap plans to build our own in Queensland.

But most of all, I’ll tell you what is ludicrous, it is ludicrous to think that through all of this toe cutting, somehow JO’N is thought to be the greatest of great for simply putting an organisation into care and maintenance mode.
That takes no genius on a CEO’s part, any professional Executive could have made those decisions, especially with the excuse of the current economic climate.

A true leader, a CEO of the standing he is held up to be, would have found ways of building the ARU regardless and in spite of the current climate.
That was why he was pleaded with to come back, to help Australian Rugby charge forward despite the woes, because he was the only man for the job.

With fifty of the world’s biggest companies, ten (well, nine is you discount Footballs Lowy) billionaires and 7,520 more Senior Male Players than New Zealand at his disposal, he has achieved what?

ARS: Disbanded

APC: Disbanded

Australia A XV: Disbanded, compromising the integrity of the Regionally vital PNC

Wallabies: Player salary sacrifice, Bledisloe fixture moved off shore and record mid-career player losses to NH.

So TOCC, you tell me, why is it is ludicrous to make the comparison?
Is it because we are the chalk or because we are the cheese?
Is it because it’s downright embarrassing that a country of the significant global stature of Australia has a shambles called the ARU or because a relative minnow like New Zealand can be rightly proud of the NZRU institution?

And please someone, anyone, tell me just what these fantastic achievements of JO’N MkII are that justify him being held up as some untouchable beacon of light?

What exactly is it that he has done, during this period since returning from Football, as a professional Sporting CEO that ANY experienced Executive from ANY walk of business life wouldn’t or couldn’t have done themselves.

“Saving the ship” is one thing, going forward at the same time is entirely another and that, by any measure, has not been achieved under his second reign.

I will use the Japan-Australia relationship as the case example:

Japan/Australia

Population: 127/21(million)
GDP: $4300/ 821(billion)
GNI per capita: $37'600/$35'960

Global 2000
Japan=350
Australia=50

Im not going to continue on in this, everyone gets the point, Japan is a much larger economy then Austraila.

Total players
Japan: 121'000
Australia: 80'000

Senior Males
Japan: 52'000
Australa: 36'000

So what we have here, is Japan with a much wealthier economy, larger corporate base and larger player pool in comparison to Australia.

Yet japan has never beaten a top10 national team and there national comp is recognised by even the untrained eye as a easy retirement package.

Whats my point, well comparing Austraila and Japan is pretty ludicrous, Japans culture is different, there support for rugby union is different, they are similar to australia in the fact that other sports sit ahead of rugby union(softball and baseball i think).


Burgs, i must also point out to everyone that you have mislead people with your article, firstly Australias senior male playing pool does outnumber the New Zealand senior male pool, but more importantly to the overall statistic would be the fact that New Zealands Teen males outnumber Australia by almost 20'000.

Teen Males:
NZ=37'000
Aus=18'000

In terms of depth and development, the teenage population is more critical to the health of the game then seniors, It also shows that there is a larger culture in NZ to give up rugby once you finish school as opposed to Australia(not so different to American Football). If you havent been recognised for you talents by the time you leave school, then its usually to late.

I should also point out that the NZRU cash reserves are in fact $55million NZD, not the $70million mentioned by Burgs, which actually translates to $45million AUD. In comparing countries, its only fair that you factor in the exchange rate, its rather misleading otherwise.

i should point out that burgs mentioned the ARU canned the rugby academy in QLD, this could not be further from the truth. The rugby academy has not been banned, it is pretty much on hold due to the fact that the Fed Govt(KRudd) pulled funding. The ARU has still given support to the project, although the QRU are the driving force behind it.

Also, other misleading statements in Burgs post, is the "record number" of mid-career player losses to over seas, this is just a load of shit.

Burgs, i have to say i am getting fed up with your patronising attitude towards me, i have been posting fair and factual and if thats a problem for you then tough luck. If you have a problem with JON, then thats fine, but how about you keep the posts factual and rational, i dont like wasting my time by posting bullshit about 'Japan' just to prove a point about how comparing NZ and Aus is like chalk and cheese.

This thread has gone completely off topic, the subject is the $9.2 million operating profit or the $700k overall profit.

If you want to keep bitching abuot JON, then how about you offer some alternatives rather then criticising all the time. Explain to us how he should cover the $2million shortfall by not selling the Bledisloe to Hongkers, or how the ARU is going to sustain the $8million cost of running the ARC once the cash reserves are delpleted.

[Burgs]

Not a single answer as suspected.
You have set the tone of the thread.

[TOCC]

Not a single answer as suspected.
You have set the tone of the thread.

burgs, you asked me a whole lot of questions in comparing the ARU and NZRU, like i have already said, comparing those two countries is pointless since they are like chalk and cheese and it is a stupid comparison.


You know what burgs, go fuck yourself, i spent a decent amont of time replying to your post and you give me this shit back.

[Burgs]

Hate to see if you answered now after your team got given their arse on a plate.

Making a comparison to a second tier nation by way of answering the comparison of two leading Rugby nations is the stupid answer.

And still no evidence of why this man is a demi-god above the capabilities of all other CEO's.

Can't be bothered answering all the points where I am alleged to have mislead "everyone" but you are full of shit re the importance of the Teens v Senior's in determining playing depth.
Haven't seen too many 13-17 year olds playing NPC or even local Premier Grade.
Between 1/7th and 2/7th of the Teen figure would be considered to be even in the frame for Senior honours in Provincial Rugby with the rest of the players, ie the vast majority coming from the Senior ranks. By your description you say there is a huge drop off in NZ when they leave school, that is a bullet hole in your own foot.

And as for my giving a rats about what and how you choose to "waste your time", no one is holding a gun to your head, so go shove your own melon up your own righteous arse.

[beige]

No one's calling him a demi-god - it's just that some of us think he's done good things for the game in this country and were starting to take exception to some of the unanswered irrational hatred that was starting to pop up in threads all over this website for a man that none of us have ever even met.

[Burgs]

And I am simply asking, please tell me these good things that have been done that others are not capable doing?

[TOCC]

Hate to see if you answered now after your team got given their arse on a plate.

yes very distinguished burgs

Making a comparison to a second tier nation by way of answering the comparison of two leading Rugby nations is the stupid answer.

but your major points between australia and new zealand was the number of players and the wealth of the countries, and using that as a example of why the ARU should be better then the NZRU. Yet Japan has more players and a larger economy, so shouldnt they be better then both Australia and New Zealand?

And still no evidence of why this man is a demi-god above the capabilities of all other CEO's.

this is where you are still missing the point, im not putting JON on a pedestal, i agree with the actions taken by JON. It could have been Peter Omeara or any other person in the position and i would supported them had they taken the same actions as JON has(ie cutting costs).

Can't be bothered answering all the points where I am alleged to have mislead "everyone" but you are full of shit re the importance of the Teens v Senior's in determining playing depth.
Haven't seen too many 13-17 year olds playing NPC or even local Premier Grade.
Between 1/7th and 2/7th of the Teen figure would be considered to be even in the frame for Senior honours in Provincial Rugby with the rest of the players, ie the vast majority coming from the Senior ranks. By your description you say there is a huge drop off in NZ when they leave school, that is a bullet hole in your own foot.

you cant be bothered answering all the points where you mislead people, because you infact did.

how is that a bullet in my own foot? players are identified and recruited from there school years, NZRU have 20'000 more teenagers to identify future S14 and All Black players from, how many players are in the current Wallabies side who dont have something like Aust Schoolboys on there resume?

American Football is another example of a massive drop off after school/college, if you havent been recruited or identified by the time you are 18 then its pretty safe to say you dont have the talent to go further.

And as for my giving a rats about what and how you choose to "waste your time", no one is holding a gun to your head, so go shove your own melon up your own righteous arse.

i feel obliged to present the facts true and honest

[beige]

Who knows - maybe nothing. The fact of the matter is he's done them.